"You can't teach Power"

[paul c]

"You either have it or you don't"

Hey guys,

Is there any merit in the above quote?


I was reading about some of the biggest punching heavyweights in boxing's history, and came across a quote by Jack Dempsey.

But then came across an article that analysis power, and they reckon that Power is basically just the combination of mass and velocity.

OK, sure that makes sense. But surely a fighter can be taught to punch faster with practise, and get the most out of his body movement.

I don't know, that's why I'm asking you guys.



Edited by - paul c on 07 May 2003 19:48:01

[ozkan_the_second]

I believe that a fighter can be trained to have power and speed - its not like u are born with it! But its all in the training - well thats what i think

You have just been hit with the Big Bok Choy by the SuPrEmE fIgHtIng MaChInE!

[remy]

You can be born with it. You can train with weights and increase your speed to get the most out of your body, doesn't necessarily mean that you will have a lot of power. Look at Hunt, he is someone that was born with it. No ripped muscles or anything, just brute strength.

[BULLET]

I believe that to an extent, there are always going to be harder hitting fighters and fighters with greater speed and even still more technical fighters. However, what i have been tought is that power comes from speed and technique

speed + technique = POWER

the better you become at your technique, the faster you become, and ultimatley you start focusing on power. YOu start to hit harder, kick harder, and really start to push yourself to the max.

I remember wheni first started training and paul would say "cut the power out and focus on technique first". That progressed to speed and finally power.


MY OPINION
BULLET

[BULLET]

If i recall, this was covered in a previous issue of the mag, i think in 2001 - speed vs power, where there was a trainer survey and profiles of our top fighters


MY OPINION
BULLET

[paul c]

Please understand that I'm not claiming to know what I'm talking about, just a weird observation.

I trained kickboxing for a year or so and loved it. Unfortunately Choc moved to Melbourne and there was no one here to keep it up with. I was doing it mostly for fitness, but found it was helping me with my photography of the sport. I don't know why that is, but probably something to do with maybe sometimes being able to anticipate what might come next.

But anyway,
The guy found some terrible habits in me which he tried hard to correct. He was always wanting to correct my too wide stance and straighten out my punching technique. He to told me not to worry about hitting hard but just to try and get the basics straight.

I swear, I did this for the whole year. I did try. But I found I lost so much power with the proper MT stance that I felt I wouldn't be able to hurt anybody. I don't know why this is, I guess I'm just spastic.

So finally choc just let me do my own thing. Back to boxing type stance. Hehe, I think he just felt sorry for me. But I felt that I had twice the power in my right hand and my left hooks and right uppercuts.

I miss training. Not that I had any real ambitions, but it was just heaps of fun sparring with younger fitter guys. I've blown out in weight severe since I stopped.

Oh well, price you pay for living in the country.

[krama]

Have to agree with bullet on this one

Firstly though NO ONE is born with it - thats crap
I'd say Hunt would have been in schoolyard scraps nearly every day - if you start young and get into a **** load of fights then you build up pretty heavy resistance


I trained with the Great Dana Goodson for years - at the beginning, you would only focus on technique - THATS IT - no power ****, just technique for probably a full year - then you would progress from there - you actually found that as you developed your technique you also developed power - as the power comes from the torsional twisting motion of your body - you learn this - and its part of your technique -
there was a great article on this in an IK mag maybe a year ago - featuring none other than the legendary OZKAN himself!!
"Learn the techniques behind Ozkans awesome punching power"
The key point the article stated was Ozkan twists his body into his punches
Another excersice the article mentioned, and one we also did at Fiztroy Stars on occasion - was to get 5 kilo dumbells - do a 1 min punching drill without the weights, then do the drill with the weights, do 3 sets, then drop to 30 sec sets - this was great for building speed and power, you found that your punching without the weights was lighting fast!! definetly worth trying!! as it works - a key thing though is to ensure your technique is perfect while doing it

[Koshy]

One way to look at it is - When is the the last time that a fighter who is well known for having no power all of a sudden start KOing everyone. Ive never seen it happen!

[BULLET]

koshy, there are fighters who are clearly distinguished as either power or technical fighters, however i have seen fighters turn around and adapt power explosiveness with the right training

[paul c]

Koshy's point has some major validity.

I'm trying to think of an example but can't really come up with one.

I want to use Peter Graham as an example.
The guy has all the ingredients to be a one shot power puncher.
He has the Mass, and I reckon he's got good speed.
He's extremelly fleet footed though, so maybe he's just not used to, or doesn't want to plant his feet for the occasional power shot.

If you read the boxing forums you'll see that boxing fans reckon that Peter's punching power has come a long way. I look forward to seeing it. Unfortunately I wasn't at his last fight with Chris, but I reckon Graham would be the most devastating guy in the Oceania heavy-weight scene if somehow he got to be as big a puncher as Ozkan, Stan or Clay.

[everlast]

Hey guys,

I think the point your missing is it takes years to build up the sort of strength which separates you from the rest. So if you start fighting in your early 20's and have been training for a while you'll be in the mainstream of fighters. But if your background is a labor intesive one (e.g Arthur Tsakanos-stone mason)you'll have developed strength that you can't get from standard training ( cause it's like he's training 8 hours a day in strength)

[remy]

Krama, you think Hunt developed his power from school yard fights? lol
Knocking somebody out doesn't automatically mean u have power. Technique has a lot to do with KO'ing someone, correct. It doesn't mean it was a power shot, it could have been a perfectly timed and perfectly placed shot. I see that as different to what i see the word power as meaning. Some of us may have slightly varied interpretations of the word power.

[krama]

Its a tough one to interpet -
but as an example - ZAM has enormous POWER behind his punches, when he hits someone you hear it, and see the pain in their faces, he has stopped heaps of fighters with powerful body blows
Another fighter - Behic, great technique and throws more punches than you can see, but his fight record does not speak of harcore KO's through body blows or punches, he constantly wins on points
Hunt - has huge amounts of thrust and force behind his punches, coming firstly from his weight, but if you examine some video footage of him, he actually winds up his basic punches pretty well - thats the key to his ko victories -

[harls]

I totally agree with Bullet, speed + technique = power. I believe he is also correct about building up speed and power to a certain extent.

[tylerdurden]

the whole "you either have it or you don't" is bull****, yes some natural ability will make one person better than another but not much, if they were taught the same way and developed at the same pace.

Krama uses Zam & Behic as example great example, everyone agrees both have good technique yet Zam hits harder than Jenk. Its not because Mike's got it and Jenk doesn't. Look at the way they punch, both punch differently (hip, shoulder etc).

Paul C i couldn't agree more about Graham i've alway thought that he has the athletic ability to be a fighter that could smack everyone, but he don't have that "time for you to sleep" power.

[Don Damage]

My opinion is mass times exceleration equals power. But too many people get caught up in the exceleration or speed part of the equation. The more mass you can excelerate or move the more power you will generate. If you only punch using your arm and no body weight behind it you will not generate your maximum amount of power no matter how fast you punch.

[Danielle]

timing is everything in martial arts not speed but speed can be useful dont get me wrong




Edited by - Danielle on 10 May 2003 23:43:34

[coconut]

mass + speed = power at least thats what your science teacher tells you, however like different types of machinery there are also different types of people and genetic makeup.I will try and use different examples to explain how after learning good technique and years of punching it is obvious that some fighters will still hit harder than others.
MIKE TYSON: his tough upbringing and kill or be killed attitude has nothing to do with his power packed physical makeup, for instance it was said that as a thirteen year old Mike with only a few days of boxing training was pitted in a sparring session against one of the boxing trainers who was also a former golden gloves champion. Mike almost knocked him out.At that same age having never lifted weights before amazed trainers as he benchpressed 120kg easily.
These attributes were natural and were reinforced later by his boxing skill which were shown to him by a trainer who knew where his strengths lay"CUS D'AMATO".
TYSONS MAKEUP: tightly knitted ligaments and tendons with fast twitch muscle fibers ideal for explosiveness.
LENNOX LEWIS: this guy has the opposite physical structure to Tyson but is declared by experts as the best KO artist of this era. It is explained by science that Lewis with the longer reach would lack the explosive snap of Tyson but with sharper accuracy and a jab that doesn’t miss has a thundering right hand that has enough leverage and speed to KO anyone.
LEWIS MAKEUP: long powerful limbs combined with accurate timing and good speed = POWER.

I’d love to go on and give other examples such as George Forman, Ron Lyle and the man declared the hardest hitter in boxing Ernie Shavers but that would take all night, so we’ll leave it there. FOR NOW.
CONCLUSION: If you raise two boys and trained them exactly the same giving them the same nutritional requirements,you'll find that one will still be a little faster,a little smarter and a little stronger than the other. WHY.....ASK GOD.

[remy]

What you say makes sense. Genetics play a huge role in it. Many don't want to beleive that. When you get time coconut give us the analysis on the other fighters.

[krama]

Coconut - very interesting - yes it would be great to give us an insight into a few fighters that we know of - but to also give us some insight about being in the ring - the feelings, nerves etc

[JANER]

I always thought I was born different from the others<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

---------------------------------------------
"Seriously, What the HELL did you expect?"

[DOG FLOGGA]

I can totaly agree with bullet and krama, lets look at two extreems.
1. Bruce Lee. weighed about 60 odd KG's just look at the power that man created, no weight behind him but due to his tecnique and speed he could really hurt you,generating all his power from the movement of his body.Although dense muscle fibre and fast twitch weight training is an advantage.
2. Cris Cristopolidis. A fighter who i think has great potential and has the ability to hit twice as hard and fast.Yes he has the mass behind him but canot generate all he has due to his tecnique.
A legendary tranier by the name of Robert Hermez pointed out to me that apart from hand speed alot of power initally starts from your foot work and head.Not just arm movement.just look at Roy Jones jr he said,look at how all the punches he throws initiate from his feet.

I dont disagree with anyone but thats just my opinion.

GOLD FINGER...

[remy]

Technique has a huge part in how much power you can generate. Power of a punch has a lot to do with the whole body movement. But genetics still has a huge part in power which many here seem to disagree with. And that's fine, this is a forum of course.

[kpj746]

Power can actually be both taught and improved upon. However most of the techniques that both trainers and atheletes think of as increasing power do not work.

Here are a list of things that are a given.

1. Punching with dumbells will not increase your power. High rep + light weights does nothing to increase either speed strength or absolute strength. This style of training employs slow twich fibres, these fibres have no role in explosive power.
2. Likewise bodyweight exercises will do little to increase absolute power.
3. Before understanding how power can be increased is is important to understand what power is as it applies to sporting activites..

Power is divided into two components

a)Absolute Strength
The maximum amount of musculoskeletal force that can be generated for one effort (1 RM). According to Tudor Bompa (Romanian strength coach) no visible increase in power takes place without a substantial gain in absolute strength. Absolute strength forms the foundation for increasing speed-strength.

b)Speed Strength
This is strength divided by time, or force multipied by distance divided by time. Speed strength is further broken down into :

) Starting strength. The ability to turn on as many muscle fibers as possible at the beginning of a movement, e.g., coming off the line in sprinting, the javelin throw, throwing a quick knockout punch.

2) Explosive strength. The ability to leave on the muscle fibers once they are stimulated -- referred to as rate of force development (100m sprint, shot-put).

3) Reactive strength or reversible strength. Refers to the body's ability to store potential kinetic energy in the eccentric phase, and convert it to actual kinetic energy in the concentric phase (example: bending down at the knees and immediately jumping upwards, powermetric drills).

All of these can be enhanced dramatically in all atheletes.

[Glass Jaw]

Briefly i think that statement has SOME merit, but yet you CAN teach technique or methods that ultimately bring about the power!

[kpj746]

Perhaps you can enlighten us to:

a)which bit has merit?
b)what techniques increase power and your evidence for such a statement?
c)your understanding of how to maximize the force velocity curve in atheletes?

[Glass Jaw]

No probs, but i stated "briefly" because i realy don't have much time.

I beleive some guys are going to be more powerful than others regardless of what exercises the ones with less power perform.
In addition, you can really only teach or learn the techniques (path) to reach the destination (gain power), yet IMHO it is just a supplementary to the task, or side effect so to speak.

Really, i believe there are many techniques that can be implemented to help gain power; to many to dwell into here.

Some that have been beneficial to me are: Isolated stretching, plyometrics, shadow boxing, weight training and swimming (via loosening the muscles).

Yet punching technique, such as stance position etc can serve to better one's power as well. i.e placement of feet, stepping into punches.

Again, weight training, swimming, explosive cycling, cardio etc are all useful, depeneding on purpose, goal and orientation.

Just a few brief statements there, yet these things i guarantee will NOT work for some.

Thanks