Traditions in Muay Thai

[gvmartialarts]

Superstition, Tradition & Religion - Do they belong in Muay Thai
(Mat Reid, IK October ed.)

Be it lucky underwear, reciting a prayer or wearing goodluck amulets, amny people believe that certain items and rituals will give them the edge in a bout where the weight, fitness and experience of both fighters are so close. So will praying or participating in traditional routines really make you a better fighter?

As we find more and more countries involved in kickboxing and Muay Thai, we notice they have incorporated their national, religious and traditional affectations within the sport. We have seen Muslim fighters wearing the Arabic shmaagh (head cloth) and agaal (head band) in place of the Thai mongkon. Conversely, we see practitioners of the sport choosing not to wear the paraphenalia, stating that they do not follow the religios doctrine associated with the sport. Unfortunately, we also see fighters participating in rituals and dress to 'fit in.'

Superstition, religion and Muay Thai are so deeply interwoven; it is hard to appreciate the art without having an understanding of the spiritual side. As the founding country of Muay Thai is predominantly Buddhist, practitioners and fans witness a strong tradition of invoking the protection of Buddha and famous monks to help them in training, fighting and life in general. By using relics, amulets, special tatto designs, and wearing the monkhon (head band) and paa-phra-jead (arm band), fighters can protect themselves with spiritual armour to help odds swing their way.

The same goes for Christian, Jewish and Muslim followers who also invoke their God, various saints and prophets to guide and protect them from harm. Often you will see fighters reciting a prayer or gesture (crossing themselves) in preparation for a fight. Famous kickboxer Stan 'The Man' Longinidis credits his great skill in the sport to his Christian God, and lets his fans know it.

The World Taekwondo Federation has recently banned the wearing of Muslim attire by female competitors stating they "[will not] recognize any religion and would not make any accomodation for the head and body covering called 'hijabs.' This raises some 'what-ifs' for the amrtial arts community, especially for full-contact fighters wearing the arm bands 'paa-phra-jead' whilst competing. I know I hate to see fights paused so the referee can pull up one fighter's arm band that has slipped-down (although that has happened to me, and I gladly welcomed the break seeing it as a chance to gulp down those big breaths!), but it is a tradtion, and no one has the right to question your personal beliefs and attire. Or do they?

But what percentage of fighters indulge in the dress and traditional practices to be like everyone else? Or do they do it because it is just a part of the sport? We are so lucky in this country to be exposed to the world and itsmany conventions, and with the aid of libraries and the World Wide Web, other cultures are at our fingertips.

In a society where religion, tradtition and superstition are so important to most of us, we are sure to carry their influences into our day-to-day activities. So why wear the clothing, or ask for protection from a higher power, or wear symbols of good luck? Only you can answer that, but do it with a real understanding and respect that all religions and traditions deserve, and don;t be afraid to ask questions.

[gvmartialarts]

Tradition or Trend?
Thai Culture in Aussie Muay Thai
(Richard Walsh, IK December ed.)

We're not Thai, yet we adhere to Thai spiritual and religious traditions. RICHARD WALSH asks why we do such and whether Thai tradtion has a place in Australian Muay Thai.

'What's with the tennis racket in his head?' How many times have you heard that statement from a Muay Thai newbie? Our sport has a lot of traditions and formalities before the fight even begins. I can understand why the Thais do them, but why do us non-Thai fighters follow suit?

I'm not Thai or Buddhist so why should I wear the mongkon and bless the ropes and perform the Ram Muay before a fight? Do I really know what it stands for and will it make me a stronger fighter?

As I understand it the Ram Muay is done to thank and praise the fighter's family, trainers and gym. But most fighters thank their family friends and trainers on the microphone if given that chance or out the back after the fight anyway, so why would it be necessary for us to do a dance to perform this task?

Wearing the mongkon looks great but you can buy them from any street corner in Bangkok so how much spiritual power is really in them? Why not just wear your lucky baseball cap or better still carry a pair of rosary beads?

As for blessing the ropes, what exactly am I hoping to scare away or ward off? I'm not a big believer of ghosts and spirits. If anything I would like their help!

I have wondered about these things since practising Muay Thai and went through a period where I believed in a lot of the traditions of the Thai art. Now it't not that I don;t believe in them but more a case of it's not really who I am. I'm a proud Aussie doing a Thai sport (which has gone global. Soccer is an English sport gone global. Baseball is an American sport gone global. Taekwondo is a Korean sport gone global. - Ed) and now teaching it to more and more students from many nationalities. I do believe in wearing the mongkon to the ring not for its supposed spiritual beliefs but rather becuase it distinguishes Muay Thai from other styles of fighting, be it boxing, kickboxing or K-1. If it becomes identifiable simply as part of the uniform of the Muay Thai fighter then the average punter knows that the next fight is going to be a Muay Thai fight or that the fighter wearing it is from a Muay Thai background, the same as when some Korean fighters wear their gi to the ring before an MMA fight, for identity and as an acknowledgement to their chosen art.

Too all Muay Thai fighters reading this hopefully you will ask yourself, what does it mean when my trainer makes me bow my head and places the mongkon on my head before I fight? For most trainers it;s that feeling that you are offering that last piece of protection to the fighter before they go into battle, and that hopefully it will offer the protection the Thai's speak of. Also for that fighter it gives them the chance to wave the flag of their gym so to speak.

When I see trainers like Nugget and JWP placing the mongkon on their fighters head I know there is a little more voodoo than the average Aussie trainer becuase of the study these guys have done into Muay Thai/Buddhism and the understanding of the Thai culture and beliefs. Maybe that's why their fighters are so hard to beat!

All in all I think it's great we have certain traditions in the sport we partake in mainly so the sport is recognised as different to kickboxing in general, and hopefully it will encourage fighters to do a bit of study behind it to try to understand why exactly you do the rituals you do and not just do them because everyone else is.

[promoboss]

matty did youscan an old IK mag?

[DazMon]

No he didn't coz it had a typo in the first line already!
I would have OCRd that sucker, stuff retyping it.
Or asked Blitz for the text doc.

[DazMon]

And they are both good articles, both written by people who we can believe and who are far from nobodies, and contain info for the beginner and intermediate at the same time.

[Hellfighter]

I say follow your heart and your head, if you feel it's right... do it, but if you mess with the "powers above" expect karma to pay you a visit with a frying pan at a point in your life when you least expect it

for those thinking that receiving sak-yant from an Ajarn in Thailand, Cambodia, Laos etc. etc. looks cool and WILL protect you while you neglect it... think again, the same goes for any phra (amulet) that is giving to you as a gift, they deserve the respect and to not follow the rules or to apologise when you stuff up is a big no-no!

[humble]

Both good articles and well written.

I especially agree with Richard Walsh.

However, I know that Buddhism doesn't promote vulgarity, drinking till drunk or drinking at all, adultery and so many other things some of it's practitioners participate in.

I won't judge Buddhism by such practitioners even if they are world champions or what not.

But I have often questioned even wearing the monkon out to the ring but did it for the sake of merely being recognized as a MT practitioner as Richard mentioned.

I don't and wont perform the Ram Muay because I don't believe in it but I do respect those that do and acknowledge why some may perform it.

Even sealing off the ring is a procedure I've found myself questioning.

Guess those two articles are a wake up call for me to do what I believe and not merely anything for recognition.

Sure one can ask for protection from being hurt or hurting the other person seriously but to pray religiously seems a little hypocritical to me as know Deity would promote the savageness we execute on each other and let's face it, we're not point sparring or demonstrating, we all have intentions to hurt the other person or stop them.

That's my 2 cents.

[Hellfighter]

"no deity would promote the savageness"

but thru out time people have sacrificed the lives of innocents & thrown people to the lions as an "offering" to the powers above to let their crops grow or their village prosper etc. etc., scenes of war are depicted thru out the world on wall paintings, scrolls and texts found many years later

my 2 baht is "real MuayThai includes the Wai Khru (or part there of) and the wearing of the mongkon"... it does not have to include the "sealing of the ring" as I have witnessed on more than 1 occasion here in Thailand, but as I have said in other threads and on other Forums... try walking into a Karate or Tae Kwon Do school and tell them you refuse to learn and demonstrate the kata in the dojo or at a grading and see how long you last

if you wish to be seen as a representative of an Art, then represent it... don't be the odd one out, and remember if it is a WMC promotion the banner states ONE WORLD, ONE MUAYTHAI

[humble]

quote:Originally posted by Hellfighter


but thru out time people have sacrificed the lives of innocents & thrown people to the lions as an "offering" to the powers above to let their crops grow or their village prosper etc. etc., scenes of war are depicted thru out the world on wall paintings, scrolls and texts found many years later

my 2 baht is "real MuayThai includes the Wai Khru (or part there of) and the wearing of the mongkon"... it does not have to include the "sealing of the ring" as I have witnessed on more than 1 occasion here in Thailand, but as I have said in other threads and on other Forums... try walking into a Karate or Tae Kwon Do school and tell them you refuse to learn and demonstrate the kata in the dojo or at a grading and see how long you last

if you wish to be seen as a representative of an Art, then represent it... don't be the odd one out, and remember if it is a WMC promotion the banner states ONE WORLD, ONE MUAYTHAI


I dunno, I think an offering is one thing, ie a sacrifice of some sort and it could even merely be a struggle within and not necessarily a material offering and then "fighting" and attaching to it the guise of an offering seems to be at odds, at least that's how I feel. Others may feel that they have to make this offering to remain true and loyal through and through, but does that only relate to the ring or do they then carry the other beliefs that promotes the offering throughout the rest of their lives and lifestyle?

What if you just want to fight and fight under the rules of the art? Must you adhere to it's tradition if you're not at all in harmony with the beliefs?

I just can't link religion of any sort to fighting. Fighting is vain, egotistical and for the few moments that we engage in it, an abnormal experience. It is not normal to train ones mindset to fight, that is why one must train ofcourse. It is an irregular activity we participate in and one I believe does require work on the spirit and ego but as useful as many religious beliefs are at abasing the ego and enhancing the spirit, it is a different discipline altogether to prepare the ego and spirit for fighting.

This issue alone has caused many a drama for me in the past and only when I have dissociated from my normal self have I found that I could continue on with the art properly.

Very interesting topic of discussion and glad to hear the contributions and initial write ups.

[Hellfighter]

beliefs? I have stated before: Buddhists pray at the bottom of the stairs and Muslims pray in a quiet room with their own people... the Wai Khru is to pay respect to YOUR family, YOUR trainer & YOUR Gym, if one wishes to make it "religious" so be it, but as for the mongkon being a religious emblem I'll give you my PayPal details and buy you one with the centre being made from Nylex garden hose and the strands simply glued in in a bunch from Lumpinee Stadium that way there is no way it can be mistaken as religious

to quote a Thai lady from another forum "The Buddha is not thought of as a god in Buddhism and is not prayed to. He is looked up to and respected as a great teacher"

also, just to double back on my last post... if you WISH to partake in a fighting art and DON'T wish to wear their uniform, don't get upset if they say "no"

I was part of the QLD Team in the Australian TKD Titles back when dinosaurs walked the earth and one of our members had cut the legs of his pants by about 8" because he saw it at a Shotokan class and liked the idea of the shorter pants... he had travelled to Sydney and was refused the opportunity to fight as his "uniform" wasn't the standard specified

as you said "very interesting topic and glad to read the contributions"... I totally agree & each to their own, but we can only blame ourselves and the internet for "keyboard arguements"

[Imsta]

Can I get involve? [:p]

[humble]

quote:Originally posted by Hellfighter
the Wai Khru is to pay respect to YOUR family, YOUR trainer & YOUR Gym, if one wishes to make it "religious" so be it,


Ok, so must I pay "respect" via this movement to be allowed into the sport?

quote: but as for the mongkon being a religious emblem I'll give you my PayPal details and buy you one with the centre being made from Nylex garden hose and the strands simply glued in in a bunch from Lumpinee Stadium that way there is no way it can be mistaken as religious



Ok, so I guess there's no issue with not wearing it since people can make it from garden hoses and strands?


quote:to quote a Thai lady from another forum "The Buddha is not thought of as a god in Buddhism and is not prayed to. He is looked up to and respected as a great teacher"

Well, that's how I always understood Buddha to be, but as with all religons, sometimes people don't practice correctly and it's a little naive to believe that some don't "worship" him.

quote:also, just to double back on my last post... if you WISH to partake in a fighting art and DON'T wish to wear their uniform, don't get upset if they say "no"

Uniforms? You know that they are just constructs to make the sport more marketable and differentiated. I doubt the uniforms have any real traditional value.

quote:
as you said "very interesting topic and glad to read the contributions"... I totally agree & each to their own, but we can only blame ourselves and the internet for "keyboard arguements"

Arguements? Where?

[Voice]

quote:I just can't link religion of any sort to fighting. Fighting is vain, egotistical and for the few moments that we engage in it, an abnormal experience. It is not normal to train ones mindset to fight, that is why one must train ofcourse. It is an irregular activity we participate in and one I believe does require work on the spirit and ego but as useful as many religious beliefs are at abasing the ego and enhancing the spirit, it is a different discipline altogether to prepare the ego and spirit for fighting.


yep, the fights we watch or get involved in are for sport and/or money folks, no life and death experiences and villages to defend or plunder.
Richard's article sounds pretty good. If you want to learn MT for fitness and personal betterment at the same time as competing then good on you. Those people will wear the various garbs for identification.
If you want to progress to religious understanding then great also.

I would just hate to see one group of practitioners believing they had more of a right to the sport than another simply because of the path they have chosen.
And let's not kid ourselves, claiming religious fulfillment doesn't make us a better person unless we practice what is taught. Honesty, respect and tolerance is/should be a common thread across all religions and if muay thai helps achieve this then doubly good.

[promoboss]

Both Humble & Hellfighter do raise some good points on both articles.
I have been into MT for over 17 years now and when I first started no one really wore a monkong unless it was a national full thai rules title or higher.
But as a naive young fighter you that you get very absorbed into the whole being of muay thai and all that goes along with it in & out of the ring, some of us stick with all the traditional rituals and some don't but hey each too thier own.
Now I'm no so full of beans and rearing to go full tilt into everything but there are some things that I have kept as part of my day to day philosophy of muay thai and that is to give the sport and those that have been there before me the respect that and the sport deserve.:D

[Viper]

Absolutly awesome topic. Fantastic reading and great to see it being handled in a professional and respectful manner. Keep it coming.
Sharon

[Hellfighter]

quote:Hellfighter
the Wai Khru is to pay respect to YOUR family, YOUR trainer & YOUR Gym, if one wishes to make it "religious" so be it,


quote:humble

Ok, so must I pay "respect" via this movement to be allowed into the sport?

if you ever wish to fight in Thailand, YES, you must demonstrate your knowledge & respect (no matter how big or small) to the crowd and the officials

quote:Hellfighter
but as for the mongkon being a religious emblem I'll give you my PayPal details and buy you one with the centre being made from Nylex garden hose and the strands simply glued in in a bunch from Lumpinee Stadium that way there is no way it can be mistaken as religious



quote:humble

Ok, so I guess there's no issue with not wearing it since people can make it from garden hoses and strands?

whether it is a religious item or not, it is still part of the "uniform" that should be respected... same goes for ankle guards, the rule says that they MUST be worn, but as of round 3 they can be removed, oh, and if you are afraid of messing up your hair, get your Khru to carry a comb in their pocket... they do in Bangkok

as seen at the IFMA's, one nakmuay entered the ring without a mongkon and the officials stated that he must wear it and circle the ring once as written in the rule book

quote:[i]Hellfighter[i]
to quote a Thai lady from another forum "The Buddha is not thought of as a god in Buddhism and is not prayed to. He is looked up to and respected as a great teacher"

quote:humble

Well, that's how I always understood Buddha to be, but as with all religons, sometimes people don't practice correctly and it's a little naive to believe that some don't "worship" him.

nobody said that some don't "worship" him, it was just a quote

quote:Hellfighter
also, just to double back on my last post... if you WISH to partake in a fighting art and DON'T wish to wear their uniform, don't get upset if they say "no"

quote:Originally posted by humble

Uniforms? You know that they are just constructs to make the sport more marketable and differentiated. I doubt the uniforms have any real traditional value.

traditional or not, you wouldn't enter the square jungle wearing a tutu... or would you?

quote:[i]Hellfighter[i]

as you said "very interesting topic and glad to read the contributions"... I totally agree & each to their own, but we can only blame ourselves and the internet for "keyboard arguements"

quote:humble

Arguements? Where?

no arguements at all which is great & I appreciate chatting with others on this subject... thanks

[gvmartialarts]

As far as items being authentic & magical because they were made by a monk, or your trainer etc, and not made in some sweat shop down a little soi is irrelevant. What you believe is. I remember you told me a story Dave about an ajarn that blessed a soft drink bottle lid? That is a great example of what i am talking about. Carew to refresh my memory?

[Hellfighter]

it was written on another Forum that Ajarn Nuu Ganpai was having a discussion about "magic" with a devotee one day and he told him that "the magic is not in a Yant or in any phra (amulet), but in the words that a mantra is developed from"

to prove his point he said a mantra into a bottle lid and had a devotee hold the lid and then told him to throw it in the air, when the devotee did this Ajarn Nuu produced a pistol in order to shoot the lid but it jammed... he tried many times and each time it failed

the devotee was then asked to take the lid from the samnak (office) and upon him leaving Ajarn Nuu fired off 1 round to prove that the gun did in fact work, but not when the magic was present

*some may recall an article in IK of Nugget receiving Yant from him and Angeline Jolie also received a Yant*

[humble]

If I'm not mistaken though, I don't remember Ramon Dekker performing much of the rituals and he publicly stated that because he wasn't Thai or Buddhist, he didn't feel he needed or wanted to.

He fought a fair bit in Thailand too.

[imported_n/a]

Separate religion from tradition then every one will follow.

While you are learning how to kick, punch, grapple you should be learning wai kru, as you advance in skill you obtain right to wear mongkon and so on.

I could be way off the mark but I think if you make it Muay Thai Tradition from the top down then all practitioners will do it and do it with meaning.

[Hellfighter]

quote:Originally posted by humble

If I'm not mistaken though, I don't remember Ramon Dekker performing much of the rituals and he publicly stated that because he wasn't Thai or Buddhist, he didn't feel he needed or wanted to.

He fought a fair bit in Thailand too.




very true, but closer to the end of his fighting in Thailand and he understood that it is part of the Art and not of religion

he did wear a mongkon only a couple of times and also did the Wai Khru once or twice... but after his 3rd battle with Coban they both did a little dance in centre ring

[imported_n/a]

Someone mentioned IFMA earlier - interesting to note that to gain entry as an Olympic sport all practices with any religous connotations will have to be abandoned. You cannot preclude a member country from participating in a sport becuase of their refusal to participate in religous practices associated with the sport.

TKD had to face this as Muslim participants wore the hijab during competiton. As these practices are not part of the actual bout per se then I believe the IOC will force them to be disregarded should MT gain Olympic status.

BTW as there was no formal ring used in Muay Thai until the 1920's then how did you seal a ring before that time when none existed? Is the tradition of sealing the ring a mere 90 years old (in its current format)?

[Hellfighter]

as you have stated the "Muslims wore the hijab during competition"... the mongkon is only worn upon entry to the ring and during the Wai Khru, neither of these are religious

and concerning the "sealing of the ring", I can't answer that... I'm only 35yrs old, but will ask around

[dutts72]

Wow great topic and one close to heart for myself.

Yes Humble Dekker from memory bar one occasion i saw never sealed the ring, wore a mongkong or performed the wai khru or ram muay. I think he actually thought this would cost him the fight if he did not ko his opponent when in reality i think it was his lack of understanding of the scoring system.

As far as the Mongkong and Ram Muay is concerned i think its values and traditions should be promted and followed reagrdless of the individuals religous/spiritual beliefs. If it is your chosen sport/martial art then you should adhere to its traditions in all aspects, if you feel uncomfy with this then there is always kickboxing, k1 etc.

Humble re the quote used regrading Gautama Buddha (Deva Tat in siamese history) as not being recognised as a God well yes this is a true statement. A spiritual teacher yes, a prophet,a Manifestation of God or an avatar of vishnu to others.

[imported_n/a]

quote:Originally posted by Hellfighter

as you have stated the "Muslims wore the hijab during competition"... the mongkon is only worn upon entry to the ring and during the Wai Khru, neither of these are religious

and concerning the "sealing of the ring", I can't answer that... I'm only 35yrs old, but will ask around



But not wearing them precludes you from competing according to the WMC / IFMA - many religions such as Islam or Christianity would consider them to be pagan amulets or ceremonies and thus against the rules of their religion and the rules of the IOC.

[humble]

quote:Originally posted by PIRA PIRA

quote:Originally posted by Hellfighter

as you have stated the "Muslims wore the hijab during competition"... the mongkon is only worn upon entry to the ring and during the Wai Khru, neither of these are religious

and concerning the "sealing of the ring", I can't answer that... I'm only 35yrs old, but will ask around



But not wearing them precludes you from competing according to the WMC / IFMA - many religions such as Islam or Christianity would consider them to be pagan amulets or ceremonies and thus against the rules of their religion and the rules of the IOC.


PIRA PIRA, that's a good understanding. Yes it would actually be offensive for a Muslim to wear such amulets or objects of religous "blessing". Muslims themselves have their own amulets so I've often contemplated using one which wouldn't be recognized and possibly thought of as part of the attire/tradition.

When I do seal the ring, I say my own prayers in each corner, one specific to my religion.

I completely respect the thai's wishes to perform them though but only wished the reverse is true.

But the point regarding IOC recognition etc is interesting.

The worlds best wrestling and grappling championships are held in Abu Dhabbi, a Muslim country where much of the attire worn would be deemed irreligious but no one is forced to wear something against their own will just to please the Muslims tradition.

Muay Thai is so global now I think it would be it's shortfall to not recognize that not everyone will follow their tradition in the ring but that shouldn't mean they get offended.

[imported_n/a]

Thanks Humble - I was thinking about this a while ago when someone was discussing WMC rules. These rules about forcibly wearing mongkon's, etc. will torpedo any attempt for MT to get into the Olympics - such a rule I believe is in breach of the IOC charter.
A voluntary wearing would be allowed but forced? No way.

Good point about Abu Dhabi also - that's a global event with a global mindset to set aside cultural differences for the sake of competition.

[Seth_2]

quote: As I understand it the Ram Muay is done to thank and praise the fighter's family, trainers and gym. But most fighters thank their family friends and trainers on the microphone if given that chance or out the back after the fight anyway, so why would it be necessary for us to do a dance to perform this task?

as for this; we must remember that a lot of these thai fighters are living in bangkok fighting literally to survive and to support their families who may live far away. Their family and friends may rarely get to see them fight unless they are A grade fighters whom fight on television often. Every time they step into the ring they are fighting for their loved ones, to give them a bit of a better lifestyle and to continue to have food in their stomachs and a roof over their head.

as for traditions.. i believe they are a big part of muaythai
they have different meaning to almost every person, and thats great.
to me, it is very important. More important than fancy shorts, fluro anklets, ur favourite entrance music.. but thats all good too :)

I always pray before fights, i pray for the safety of both myself and my opponent. I pray that both fighters can fight to the best of their ability and i pray that i can do everything to win for those who have put the time and effort into my life and my training with nothing asked in return. Amont this i strive to be a humble, polite well presented person as opposed to many fighters ive met that do not speak a word to their opponents before or after fights, or disrespect other fighters/camps.

good topic btw :)

[Hellfighter]

gee, sounds like your almost Thai :P

[Seth_2]

if there average wage was higher i would be :P hahaha

[Viper]

Amazing post Seth, your thoughts are older than your years....
You are a credit to yourself and your family.
Shaz

[dutts72]

Christianity would consider them to be pagan......hmmmmm considering christianty is a derivative of Paganism?!

[Seth_2]

thnx sharon :)
at the end of the day i dont think that the wai kru/ram muay etc. will give the fighter an edge on an opponent who does not do one. However i know it always puts my heart and mind in the right place and definately relaxes me before a fight.

i was actually thinking about it last night, we had a christian fighter under us for some time and he never once refused to do any of the pre fight traditions. Im sure he would have said his own prayers, but he also upheld the muaythai traditions whether or not they were buddhist influenced. The only thing he didnt do was visit the temples with us in thailand, he went to a church instead.

At the end of the day, times change and things change.. what everyone does/or doesnt do may be important to some.. but not others. I for one will uphold the traditions of muaythai regardless of new trends, and there are many more who will aswell :)

[ChrisQ]

All fair points Mitch, as long as people don't criticise others for not following the traditions. Everyone is different...

[promoboss]

this topic hurts my back!!!!

[Seth_2]

i dont have a problem with anyone not doing/following traditions.. and i dont see why other people should care. Everyones thoughts and beliefs are their own, its great to share beliefs.. but theres no need to force them onto others. I dont mind not having to step around people during my ram muay :P hehe. However i do believe that a muaythai fighter should seal the ring before a fight at minimum, but thats just my opinion..

out of interest chris (or any other khmer practitioners)
do you perform a traditional dance or any other things similar to those in muaythai? (i dont wish for a debate tho.. lol) Ive seen some fighters preform such things and wear something on their head similar to the mongkol.. but others i have seen do not do this.

u seem to get alot of back injuries now days promo :P
but ur not in pattaya.. does it work over here? hahah

[ChrisQ]

quote:Originally posted by Seth_2


out of interest chris (or any other khmer practitioners)
do you perform a traditional dance or any other things similar to those in muaythai? (i dont wish for a debate tho.. lol) Ive seen some fighters preform such things and wear something on their head similar to the mongkol.. but others i have seen do not do this.


Yeh Mitch Kun Khmer has its own rituals and so forth, but I'm yet to be taught them properly.

Would have no problems learning them and performing them once I fully understand the significance.

[Hellfighter]

putting aside the "whether it's buddhist" points, the Wai Khru is designed for:

quote:[i]the Textbook of Pahuyuth - Panya Kraitus[i]

The dance of Wai Khruu is also a good way of loosening up body muscles, arms, legs, knees & elbows. In brief, a fairly useful exercise to warm-up to prepare the boxers for the impending fight

3 points of the Wai Khruu:

1. pay homage and tribute to teachers and those to whom gratitude was due ie. Father and Mother

2. consecrate a blessing on the performer, a morale booster and a shield against nervousness and fear

3. show the origin of the boxer, what camp he belonged to, as each camp had its own distinct style

when it comes down to it, to each their own, but my feeling is if you are going to put your heart and soul into an Art and your body on the firing line... why not do it 110%

[pesty]

although we are competing in a sport that has a lot of traditions to the thai people, it doesnt mean your not giving it 110% if you dont follow it to a tee. There is others that are broken each fight night, stepping thru ropes and not over, stomping in the oppositions corner when sealing the ring, females touching the male mongkong, the ring not being blessed before the fights, i could keep going but where do you stop. your right hellfighter, to each their own, i dont seal the ring or do the wai khruu but thats not to say others cant. when watching the crowd when someone is doing the wai khruu here in australia, they get pretty restless and bored when it is done each fight, do you keep it to the professionals who fight full mt rules or make the wai khruus short and sweet, to keep everyone happy. unhappy crowd means less crowd next time then that means less fight shows. ill put this one forward, does carnage do a wai khruu before his fights or doesnt he give 110% ?

[dutts72]

On the Knees of Fury shows run by Ethan Shepp here in adelaide only the main event fighters are allowed i think to complete a full ram muay/wai khru whilst the undercard fighters are allowed to seal the ring, im also pretty sure Mongkongs are compulsary as they are under the WMC. I think this is a great format.

[promoboss]

hey dutts did u come to bkk?

[Hellfighter]

go point about Carnage, touche... he has in the past worn a mongkon and done the Wai Khru

as for explaining to me what the crowds are like in OZ, I've only been in Thailand since August 2006 and taught MuayThai in OZ since 1991 so I've been there when cans of beer have been thrown in the direction of the ring because the fights weren't "on"

I had 1 of my fighters missed getting his head knocked off by a stubbie after fighting 5 rounds for a Title and our cornerman circled by 12 guys threatening him because "we came to their town to try and beat their champ"... DAMN I MISS AUSTRALIA :(

MuayYing should have their own mongkon, it's not disrespectful to stomp in the corner of the opponent (from my understanding) in a fight held outside of a Stadium and now in Bangkok in the Stadiums and events MuayYing are actually taking part thruout the event NOT at the end

as for my 110% comment, what I was aiming at was why not follow the Art 110%, because I take my hat off to anyone that enters the square jungle

[dutts72]

Promo

I was there mid year for a month or so n probabaly be back there soon on a more permanent basis, depends of weather work in the US comes off.

[imported_n/a]

I am with you Hell, if you are going to learn an art, learn it, problem is we are teaching a sport and in sport it about winning only not tradition. If we can teach and be taught the art then I think you will find no objection at all people following tradition, just like kata in Karate, people dont question kata because when you start training this is taught to you as part of your learning, with Muay Thai you just learn to fight. On another thread it was asked who should be called Kru, no one could give a difinitive answer, if you ask Kyokushin who can be called sempei, they will say you must have a black belt 1st dan or whatever,

Muay Thai is the best Martial Art in my opinion and deserves the recognition of Martial Art with true meaning not just something which is good for punch on.

Some people in Aus are doing classes on Muay Thai but get put down because these students may not be up to fighters standard as they only train 2 night per week, in truth this is the best thing for Muay Thai, general public should be able to learn even if they not want to fight, this will spread the word.

What does this have to do with tradition, well alot, in these classes students are taught what the meaning on training is, must bow to instructor for respect, learn what is mongkon and why do fighters wear this, learn how to do wai kru but also why do wai kru, and all of the other traditions invoved, students do not questions why they MUST learn this it is accepted as part of the Art they are involved in.

What happens in the ring is the only the sport part, but most see it as the all important stage, tradition should be taught before this,

[gvmartialarts]

Muay Thai is a martial art, and is deeper than the sporting aspect of the style.

Unfortunately for many purists, Muay Thai is being sold to the punters as a sport, we rarely see the full-on action of fights 10 or more years ago, and definitely don't see as many tricks and the like. Why? The same can be said for AFL. Ten and more years ago there was biffo, tough-as-guts heroes and guys running around with beer bellies. Now we have supreme athletes, playing a some-what different game to their fathers.

As the mystique of 'magic,' tricks, traditions and phenonema we can't explain fully, leave Muay Thai, we are left with a crisp, may I even say sterile sport. If this what it takes to bring Muay Thai to the mainstream, what are we selling exactly? I am afraid to say not a martial art.

Great to see people having adult opinions about this.

[Seth_2]

it frustrates me at times when newer people in the gym dont want to learn or perform the wai kru/ram muay when they fight..

[imported_n/a]

Seth it shouldn't frustrate you, just say you don't learn this aspect you don't fight

[Seth_2]

sadly i dont call the shots :( hahaha
but there will be changes in the gym this year
it was my resolution =]
mayb i will call more shots tho :D hehe

[pesty]

does everyone at your gym do the same wai khru seth ? i was only taught the wai khru when training in thailand, my two trainers here never taught me, not to say they arent good trainers ( wayne parr - rich walsh )

[Mick Little]

Seth mate Don't let them fight. The wai kru/ram muay are not just apart of Muay Thai "THEY ARE MUAY THAI". I really don't like that more and more people are considering to steer away from the traditions and beliefs of Muay Thai. More needs to be taught about the heritage and traditions of Muay Thai. Even reading the (what I refer to as the “Muay Thai Bible”) The text book of Pahuyuth “MUAY THAI” would be great for all fighters before they have there first fight.

Just remember guys there is always Kickboxing!!!!!

[Seth_2]

pesty; not everyone does the same wai kru at our gym.. i think everyone does the same one except me, im not too sure if anyone else does the wai kru i was taught
but everyone else does the same one.

mick; our fighters at a bare minimum seal the ring and do the wai kru.. we do require our "better fighters" or more experienced fighters to perform the ram muay also.. but i think everyone should do the whole thing, and im willing to take the time to teach our boys the wai kru/ram muay.. and maybe a bit of history too, but i need to brush up myself first lol

[imported_n/a]

quote:Originally posted by Seth_2
, and im willing to take the time to teach our boys the wai kru/ram muay.. and maybe a bit of history too,


Wait til Imsta sees this Seth

You in trouble now man

[Seth_2]

bahahahahaha.. ive actually read like all of his posts on the khmer and cambodian history..
i need someone to come on here and write more about the thai history!

while he's in conflict with me over history, we oughta gamble too :P
Im, you any good at texas hold'em? next time ur in perth we'll play some poker my man =]
or put some wagers on some fights..

[Hellfighter]

I don't care where you's from... dem fighting words!!!

[pesty]

the wai khru is not just something done especially for muay thai, it is performed by school students towards their teachers aswell, cause that is what wai khru means, paying respect to your teacher/educators/trainers/mentors. i havent gone thru the three phases of wai khru, that is why i dont perform one when fighting

[Imsta]

I really don't want to get involve anymore on these kinds of subject but since you guys keep on calling me out, I only have one question when a fighter do the wai kru what language do they use again? ;) We all know they speak Pali and Pali is writen in Khmer and mixed with Khmer words. [:p] Just my 2cents comments.

[Imsta]

Seth,

quote: bahahahahaha.. ive actually read like all of his posts on the khmer and cambodian history..
i need someone to come on here and write more about the thai history!

while he's in conflict with me over history, we oughta gamble too :P
Im, you any good at texas hold'em? next time ur in perth we'll play some poker my man =]
or put some wagers on some fights..


Yeah it would be good if we have a few more Thai' historian, maybe they can write an article to disprove on all those other articles that has came out.

I used to play a bit on line, but not anymore. I have to say I made a new year resolution no more gambling.

[humble]

quote:Originally posted by Mick Little

Seth mate Don't let them fight. The wai kru/ram muay are not just apart of Muay Thai "THEY ARE MUAY THAI". I really don't like that more and more people are considering to steer away from the traditions and beliefs of Muay Thai. More needs to be taught about the heritage and traditions of Muay Thai. Even reading the (what I refer to as the “Muay Thai Bible”) The text book of Pahuyuth “MUAY THAI” would be great for all fighters before they have there first fight.

Just remember guys there is always Kickboxing!!!!!



Meh, if the rules of Muay thai say that the fighting weapons are punches, kicks, knees, elbows and stand up grappling and throws then if someone comes in and fights within those rules, it should be completely fine, after all, how can one call them self the best thai boxer if there is someone that can utilize some of the weapons allowed in muay thai and beat them at their own game. Obviously they're fighting within the rules and whether they only box, only knee and or only elbow, kick or grapple and win the fight, then tough titties, they win the fight.

Now if the Wai Kru is 100% part of the "fighting" style of Muay Thai then I guess that makes a whole lot of incompetent Muay Thai Stylists/fighters who are earning money.

Are we going to get to the point where we become unnecessarily pedantic about irrelevant points that don't mean much within the "fight" then I believe we are lying to ourselves as to what is the essence of the sport.

It's nothing but "give them bread and circuses" and if you guys think that the circuses part is offered that much respect, then your missing the point altogether.

If your wai kru is absolutely aesthetically beautiful and performed to precision and spiritual attachment and respect to all, what does it matter if you fight like a bum?

Where is the sport then?

It's a sport... don't forget that and the meanest, baddest most ruthless and skilled win and I doubt their would be anywhere near as much following if the spiritual elements were made out to be anything more than they were.

I believe we as westerners get caught up in the mystique a little too much because of lack of our own personal "mystique". That's fine but don't make out that it is the sports back bone because it most certainly is not.

[TSINGANI]

"Now if the Wai Kru is 100% part of the "fighting" style of Muay Thai then I guess that makes a whole lot of incompetent Muay Thai Stylists/fighters who are earning money."

I missed your point here...care to elaborate??

[Hellfighter]

humble, just because you aren't buddhist doesn't mean a thing when it comes to traditions of MuayThai... if you feel you are a MuayThai warrior because you DON'T do the Wai Khru, that's your choice but remember there are other Muslim nakmuay like yourself namely, Farid Villaume & Numsaknoi who appear to have no problems doing the Wai Khru and wearing a mongkon (Farid) and showing their respect to the Art of MuayThai

[Mad_Hatter]

Why can't people agree to disagree?

Can't you all see this is an endless argument that nobody is going to win?

[GhettoSmurf]

did ramon dekker ever wear a monkong into the ring?

i remember reading in a previous ik issue talking about scott bannan where he said he agrees with dekkers opinion that whilst they appreciate the tradition and religious beliefs of the wai kru they dont do it becaues they are not buddhist.

[Imsta]

Mad_Hatter
quote: Why can't people agree to disagree?
Because everyone on this thread here holds a PHD on Muay Thai. ;) Lol.[:p]

[Hellfighter]

the Wai Khru has nothing to do with Buddhism... if the nakmuay is saying a mantra while "sealing the ring", so be it, but they pray at the bottom of the steps before they climb over the ropes, even the LEGEND Ajarn Yodthong camp has stated that in documentaries

a question for imsta, you are 110% sure that all pray in Pali while doing the Wai Khru in the ring... does this cover the Muslim fighters also?

[humble]

quote:Originally posted by Hellfighter

humble, just because you aren't buddhist doesn't mean a thing when it comes to traditions of MuayThai... if you feel you are a MuayThai warrior because you DON'T do the Wai Khru, that's your choice but remember there are other Muslim nakmuay like yourself namely, Farid Villaume & Numsaknoi who appear to have no problems doing the Wai Khru and wearing a mongkon (Farid) and showing their respect to the Art of MuayThai


Well it kinda does hellfighter, I mean if one isn't a buddhist, well whatever they are, even if they are nothing at all means that if they were true to who they were, they would practise by the code of their "nothing at all" state.

Farid and others doing it doesn't justify it. That is their personal choice and that is fine. It doesn't mean religiously speaking it is allowed.

Just like saying because OSAMA BIN LADEN wants to blow stuff up and uses quotes out of context from religous texts and without authority, it doesn't justify it either.

I respect the want for people to do it but it doesn't mean I will do it myself.

It seems the same respect isn't afforded back to non practitioners. This is somewhat extremism.

[imported_n/a]

What if the Wai Khru, Mongkon, ECT were not religous at all, what if was say a martial art tradition part of 'Muay Thai'

Would that make a difference Humble, I am personally not religous, if the Wai Khru is religous I will not be interested in this, I though have been taught as part of my learning in the art the wai khru and what it means to the sport and how to use it to impower myself.

Maybe some people just see this sport as a bit of biffo, thats cool but I see it right along side Taekwondo, Karate, Kung Fu ECT only difference is our competition side is the best.

[Imsta]

hellfighter,

quote:a question for imsta, you are 110% sure that all pray in Pali while doing the Wai Khru in the ring... does this cover the Muslim fighters also?

Pali plays an important role within the whole wai kru. When a person walk around the ring we call it,"Pot Se Ma" Every fighters have their own pali words which is mix into the wai kru process.

As for Muslim fighters not so sure if they believe in Pali or not.

It's probably a good question to ask some of our top fighters if they whisper Pali in the ring.

[humble]

quote:Originally posted by kimura

What if the Wai Khru, Mongkon, ECT were not religous at all, what if was say a martial art tradition part of 'Muay Thai'



Well it is, so the "what if" is irrelevant.

The Wai Khru is a cermonious action performed to show respect to the teacher. This is not only in Muay Thai but school children also perform "WAI" to their "KHRU" out of respect.

This involves prostration to them.

http://www.thai-blogs.com/media/waikhru_03.jpg

In the Muslim Religion as I would assume Christian, Jewish etc, prostrating to humans is unacceptable. As a personal view some people of these religions may not find it offensive or not care and prostrate anyway but this doesn't mean that religiously speaking this is allowed.

quote:I am personally not religous, if the Wai Khru is religous I will not be interested in this, I though have been taught as part of my learning in the art the wai khru and what it means to the sport and how to use it to impower myself.

Empower you with what exactly? Is this a physical exercise or a spirtual-mental preparation for some? Otherwise I don't understand how it could empower you if it was merely physical.

quote:
Maybe some people just see this sport as a bit of biffo, thats cool but I see it right along side Taekwondo, Karate, Kung Fu ECT only difference is our competition side is the best.

Any combat is going to take mental and spiritual preparation even if it were merely wrestling but that doesn't mean one form preparation/pre combat ritual must be enforced on all.

There have been Muslims in Thailand for a very long time and does that mean that they aren't allowed to fight if they choose to merely follow their religion and not prostrate and perform the Wai Khru or other religious activities?

[Imsta]

Humble,

I think people are only referring to the Muay Thai wai kru not the teachers at schools. The words have the same meaning it very depend how you put the words in context.

Wai Kru in Muay Thai or Kun Khmer is just a way of showing respects and calling to the teacher. It's taught within the warrior's culture of this sport. I'm pretty sure that the photo above these kids don't start dancing and pretend to shoot arrows at their teacher etc.

[imported_n/a]

This is my take on it, could be wrong but it is my take.

In Kyokushin before you fight you must bow to your opponent then bow to the ref, you also must not enter the mat until given permission. Kyokushin tradition

I perform the wai khru as a time to mentally give myself final preparation, I thank my trainer and the people who have helped me get to where I am and I confirm that I have done all which is necessary to achieve my goal. I use the wai khru to take in the atmosphere and relieve any nerves I have getting myself totally focused.
Because I am not religious I don’t have any religious affiliation with what I am doing and don’t believe there should be otherwise Muay Thai should be for Buddhist only. I see these as Muay Thai traditions.

[humble]

quote:Originally posted by Imsta

Humble,

I think people are only referring to the Muay Thai wai kru not the teachers at schools. The words have the same meaning it very depend how you put the words in context.

Wai Kru in Muay Thai or Kun Khmer is just a way of showing respects and calling to the teacher. It's taught within the warrior's culture of this sport. I'm pretty sure that the photo above these kids don't start dancing and pretend to shoot arrows at their teacher etc.


Yes and as part of that respect, you prostrate to your teacher which is impermissible in Islam.

[humble]

Also, what exactly is one sealing the ring off from?

[Bushi]

quote: I'm pretty sure that the photo above these kids don't start dancing and pretend to shoot arrows at their teacher etc.

Smart kids, otherwise they'd get detention..;)

Good topic still tho..everyone has their own slant on things, such is life..

[Bushi]

BTW Kimura,

quote: I perform the wai khru as a time to mentally give myself final preparation, I thank my trainer and the people who have helped me get to where I am and I confirm that I have done all which is necessary to achieve my goal. I use the wai khru to take in the atmosphere and relieve any nerves I have getting myself totally focused.

Who are you ..Might have seen you fight if we know your real identity..;)

[imported_n/a]

I have had a quiet a few fights in the Valley next time your up for an Evo show come by although they are more your MMA type than Muay Thai,

[Bushi]

Come by and say g'day to who ???

If you want to remain anon, you can email me....lol

[imported_n/a]

Humble I think that you and I look at this through different eyes although that doesn't mean either is right or wrong. Obviously you are religious and therefore see the sealing of the ring, wai khru as religious acts that will conflict with your own beliefs and this is understandable, I on the other hand do not see these things as religious acts rather as Spiritual & traditional acts for the art of Muay Thai.
Muay Thai has evolved tremendously and I think it is bigger than religeon or race now.

[Imsta]

quote: Also, what exactly is one sealing the ring off from?

Keep the bad spirits or the unluckiness away. You can say it's a bit like black magic.

[Imsta]

quote:I on the other hand do not see these things as religious acts rather as Spiritual & traditional acts for the art of Muay Thai.

hmmm. Not just MT, but also in KK. After all MT people still uses Pali Khmer' ;)

[richiej]

As someone who has only been around the sport for a couple of years i think ot is good to recognise the tradition of the sport and its origion. From what i have seen of fighters and then going to the fights from observation i have noticed a couple of things. The fighters that seem to follow the traditions of the sport seem to have a healthier respect for the sport their trainers and there fellow competetors many fighters that i have noticed that dont follow the traditions dont have any refference point from where they can promote this healthy respect for the sport itself and the people partisipating in it. But please dont get me wrong i know others that dont follow the traditions and they are still great people. I was first impressed by the fact that the sport is so brutal yet people show alot of respect for one another, and i thought that this came about from the tradtional side of the sport.

[Bushi]

Good post richiej..

I for one LOVE watching the wai kru and ram muay, and I particularly take note when one fighter performs it and his / her opponent doesn't. I think it puts the not participating fighter on edge, just watching his / her opponent get so "into it"...

Just my HUMBLE observations.

I'm all for it, and find it nearly as exciting as the fights..

[humble]

quote:Originally posted by kimura

Humble I think that you and I look at this through different eyes although that doesn't mean either is right or wrong. Obviously you are religious and therefore see the sealing of the ring, wai khru as religious acts that will conflict with your own beliefs and this is understandable, I on the other hand do not see these things as religious acts rather as Spiritual & traditional acts for the art of Muay Thai.
Muay Thai has evolved tremendously and I think it is bigger than religeon or race now.


Yes true we do see things differently and I respect your beliefs or want to do thing the way you do but it is somewhat contradictory to not see them as religious acts but as "spiritual" acts. Spiritual acts are religious and especially when Imsta says

quote:Keep the bad spirits or the unluckiness away. You can say it's a bit like black magic.

Keeping bad spirits away involves engaging in a form of religious practice according to the belief system of a person.

Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews and so on all have their take on ways to ward off evil spirits.

So what Imsta said just emphasizes what I have been saying from the beginning which is that the Wai Khru, sealing off the ring, wearing mongkon (don't trainers say prayers when removing them) in essence and from a traditional stand point IS a religious act.

Those religious acts are practiced by irreligious people sometimes or people who have no religion who know not what they are participating in or know exactly what they are participating in but have developed their own kind of personal beliefs that allow them to do so and not necessarily follow a belief system as stringently as possible.

I believe Matt's initial article mentioned this but I am getting the feeling that Muay Thai Purists frown upon people who don't perform them and like I said, it then sounds like extremism to me.

[ford]

I've seen Muslim fighters in Thailand perform the Wai Khru.When I was there about 8 years ago one of the muslim fighters was a lumpini champion and had a great Wai khru.He performed it with Arabic head gear on.I think the problem is everyone wants to change everything ,the art should be bigger than the individual.
The actions of the wai khru can mean anything the person wants it to, like anything in life.

[Hellfighter]

you are talking about the one and only NUMSAKNOI... he is fighting in Hong Kong in a month or 2

[ford]

That might be him .Coke and Numsaknoi where good friends and Coke introduced us.

Numsaknoi had that thing about him where you knew he would just whip your arse.Suppose all Lumpini champs would have this.

[humble]

quote:Originally posted by ford

I've seen Muslim fighters in Thailand perform the Wai Khru.When I was there about 8 years ago one of the muslim fighters was a lumpini champion and had a great Wai khru.He performed it with Arabic head gear on.I think the problem is everyone wants to change everything ,the art should be bigger than the individual.
The actions of the wai khru can mean anything the person wants it to, like anything in life.

Nah bro. Not saying it should be changed or wai khru should be outlawed, just simply no frowning upon someone who doesn't perform it.

NUMSAKNOI = absolute legend

[humble]

LOOKIE LOOKIE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILr3voagBG8

[ford]

Yeah thats him .Good find Humble thanks for that.I understand what you mean about the wai khru as I'm not a big fan of people telling me I have to do things.But just looking at Numsaknoi's wai khru I do love it and just view it as part of the show and something I would hate to see lost.Now of to watch some more Numsaknoi it's been awhile.

[Imsta]

HI,

It's good see these kind of discussion.

Any of you fighters here have been blessed?

Do you guys say any Pali words during your Wai Kru?

If you want to go into depth of the art it probably best to speaks to a few monks and ask them for some Pali words to protect you. If you guys are just doing the Wai Kru without having any Pali words then you should only think of it as a warm up/stretching before the fight.

[imported_n/a]

Hi Imsta in Cambodia does the wai khru have a religious connection or is more connected to the sport.

[NAM]

for my last 3 fights i was blessed by a monk and was given instructions and a prayer to say before going over the ropes and into the ring.

[Imsta]

Hi Kimura,

quote: Hi Imsta in Cambodia does the wai khru have a religious connection or is more connected to the sport.

It's more like a tradition for a fighter to call for their Kru-ancestors to come and protect. It's also a religious gesture for a fighter to pray homage when they speak Pali in the ring.

I hope you realise it's same in Thailand, Loas and Cambodia. These 3 countries share the religion and sports.

here are a number of names for wai kru that is commonly shared in the 3 countries:


Nek Lay Tok

Rolak Kon Kru

Hanuman bunge tnow

sometime Wai Kru names are renamed to great warrior of the pasts.

[Imsta]

Hi NAM,

Can you share us some of the ritual of the monks or ajar performed on you?

[imported_n/a]

So if I was to do the wai khru and make my own sayings would this be accepted by your cultures or would it be seen as a waste of time or phoney

[NAM]

Imsta,

I went to a temple with my uncle in law as an interpreter. It seem very informal at first, he asked me questions and just got to know me. It's difficult to go through all the details if you have never been a temple as you might understand. But he asked me for what i wished and to repeat words after him, most the time it seemed like meditation, after a while he wrote down a prayer that i was to repeat 3 times and instructions to blow into my gloves and wipe my gloves over my head and face to protect me before entering the ring. He also gave a me a blessed paa phra jaed.

[Imsta]

Hi Kimura,

quote:So if I was to do the wai khru and make my own sayings would this be accepted by your cultures or would it be seen as a waste of time or phoney

The whole idea of performing a Wai Kru is to call your Kru Ancestors to come in and protect you. If you're speaking another language I am not so sure if your Kru ancestors can understand you. The warrior culture only speak Pali that is why you see all those guys with scripture tats on their skin. It's the language that is shared in the religion and martial arts in South East Asia.

Anyway to answer your question, no body has the wright to tell you, you can't pray in English or Islam. At the end of the day if you feel comfortable doing it and your wining in all your fights it must be working. So I would say it's ok.

[humble]

quote:Originally posted by Imsta

Anyway to answer your question, no body has the wright to tell you, you can't pray in English or Islam. At the end of the day if you feel comfortable doing it ...


http://messenger.msn.com/MMM2006-04-19_17.00/Resource/emoticons/thumbs_up.gif

[Hellfighter]

Imsta, is Hanuman from Cambodia?

[gvmartialarts]

Like Pali, Sanskrit, traditions, rituals, words and much of SE Asian mythology, Hanuman and many other charachters and rituals stem from India, notably Hinduism. Many have different, but similar names. We also see much of far eastern religions, traditions, mythology etc in the South East Asian countries.

Im, I am sure you know that when reciting prayers, whether they be in English, Pali, Thai, Cambodian, Spanish or Yiddish, it comes from the heart. You are not 'talking' to your ancestors, asking for their help verbally, but imploring, beseeching (maybe too strong a word?) their help and guidance/protection etc, from your heart. Some of these sorts of mantras/prayers are called 'heart' mantras, heart being the key word here.

I am also led to believe that the prayers recited in Pali are usually abbreviations of Pali or Sanskrit words. They are words that have crossed over the language barrier, much like 'bubble-gum' and 'O.K!'

It would definitely be interesting to know how many fighters on here do practise this side of the art, but like myself, wouldn't put it out on the web. It is a highly personal thing, for yourself alone. But we are lucky to have many people on here that can point you in the right direction to go and find this stuff out for yourself.

Humble, I guess from reading here that you have prayers you recite, whether it be in the ring, or out the back before and after, or at home before and after a fight? Would you care to elaborate a bit more on the Islamic customs in this respect? Understand if you do not.

[humble]

quote:Originally posted by Sor.NakSooMuayThai

Like Pali, Sanskrit, traditions, rituals, words and much of SE Asian mythology, Hanuman and many other charachters and rituals stem from India, notably Hinduism. Many have different, but similar names. We also see much of far eastern religions, traditions, mythology etc in the South East Asian countries.


Yes very true. Even Hinduism has somewhat been influenced by Islamic teachings. You would find a few things from the Hindu Religon very similar to the Muslim Religion. Of particular note is the deeper spiritual side of Islam which has for centuries mystified people, namely Tassawuf or otherwise known in the west as Sufism. True authentic Sufism has it's roots interwoven and strongly attached to Islamic Doctrine and jurisprudential law and isn't as modernists and orientalists have made it out to be, ie a drunken fetish of love without any orthodox attachment to Scripture and jurisprudential law.

As the saying goes, the Sufi is the one who practices what he knows (ie all the strict fundamental laws of Islam) so God bequeaths them with knowledge of that which they don't know.

Hinduism really took to Sufism and adopted many of their gnostic teachings.



quote:Im, I am sure you know that when reciting prayers, whether they be in English, Pali, Thai, Cambodian, Spanish or Yiddish, it comes from the heart. You are not 'talking' to your ancestors, asking for their help verbally, but imploring, beseeching (maybe too strong a word?) their help and guidance/protection etc, from your heart. Some of these sorts of mantras/prayers are called 'heart' mantras, heart being the key word here.

I agree to a degree. When you beseech God or in this case as you mention your ancestors, are you beseeching through mere movement of the tongue? Even a dog can wag his tongue but it doesn't necessitate beseeching.

Rather true beseeching occurs from the heart, when you really ask for something from the pits of your soul.

However, it may be that it is part of religious belief or law that you actually make certain prayers in native tongue of the particular religion.

For example, in Islam their are four main schools of thought. Some of those schools hold it that the obligatory 5 times a day prayer must be recited in Arabic completely. Within the prayer their are points where one may make their certain invocations and it would be deemed permissible to ask in ones own personal tongue/language that they are comfortable with, but the fundamental pillars of the prayer must be recited in Arabic.

I'd assume that would be the case also with other religions where the pillars must be recited in Pali, etc.

quote:Humble, I guess from reading here that you have prayers you recite, whether it be in the ring, or out the back before and after, or at home before and after a fight? Would you care to elaborate a bit more on the Islamic customs in this respect? Understand if you do not.

Matt, I don't mind at all.

As you may be aware, irrespective of cause, Muslims are obliged to pray 5 times a day at appointed times. These being between the first light of dawn and sunrise, midday, mid afternoon, sunset, and night prayers (usually an hour and a half after sunset).

To not pray means a Muslim would be committing a major Sin unless there are uncontrollable circumstances since this is a small ask from God for the good favor that we receive daily in our lives.

Aside from that, one can obviously perform supererogatory prayers at ones own will which one would also be rewarded for and help one get closer to God, if done correctly and sincerely.

Personally, I do perform all the 5 prayers daily and sometimes supererogatory prayers.

But there is also a different kind of prayer which is more like an invocation. This doesn't really have a structure to it other than the manners of invocation that being one not trespass the respect boundaries when asking of God which is another subject altogether.

This second prayer is what is referred to as "du'a" whilst the obligatory prayer is called "Saalat".

There are also formulas one can recite in du'a which have been put together by scholars or sagely/gnostic masters. Of the most famous of these are Prophetic du'as which the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him recited himself. The next most favored would be those of the other Prophets such as Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah, etc peace be upon them all, and then obviously the scholars and masters would follow.

Some have been deliberately written to invoke God through his relevant attributes to seek protection and since I also belong to a sufi order and have a spiritual lineage through that, that is traceable right back 1427+ years to the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, the head of our sufi order has devised powerful prayers one can say for certain needs. Of those needs, protection is one of them.

Also, merely reciting some Quranic verses can help protect one from evil spirits, evil eye, and evil magic. The last two chapters in the Quran were revealed to the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him specifically for that cause.

Personally, as I said, I pray 5 times and leading up to a fight sometimes weeks out as nerves usually start to mount, I become conscious of the situation and begin praying more for safety and protection which is kind of hypocritical since I am not even meant to fight.

Regardless, I do ask God for protection during prayer and in my own invocations outside of prayer.

Before a fight, I recite a protection invocation, I might pray a supererogatory prayer also and ask for protection during that and then in the ring before entering I'd recite my own prayer and then another invocation inside the ring for protection from the 6 directions.

Every Muslim would be different in their beliefs and approach to it and there really isn't one way to pray before a fight since we shouldn't be engaging in it in the first place but these are some of the ways a Muslim may "pray".

We also do have amulets that can be made up by authentic scholars or sages which ask God for protection. I say authentic because their are many hocus pocus fakes scamming people for money for these amulets. True scholars/sages, don't take money for these things but would not just dish them out like they're flyers. Their usually has to be a very strong case or need for it because most problems can be sorted by just practicing the religion more, ie praying, fasting, staying away from impermissible acts and enjoining in good acts and supererogatory actions.


Hope that gives you a little more idea about our religion.

[Imsta]

quote:Imsta, is Hanuman from Cambodia?

Imsta is the re-educator from Cambodia. [:p]

quote:You are not 'talking' to your ancestors, asking for their help verbally, but imploring, beseeching (maybe too strong a word?) their help and guidance/protection etc, from your heart. Some of these sorts of mantras/prayers are called 'heart' mantras, heart being the key word here.

Matt,

We all know the spirits of Thai-Khmer martial arts evolved pretty much from Pali. I only put it in a simple terms for people to understand when I mentioned these words, "talking to your ancestors." When your whispering Pali it's also talking.

Maybe I should point out that Pali in South East Asia derived from India, but the Khmer people have documented and mixed it with their Khmer' language that's is why the proper terms is Pali-Khmer.

To do the Wai Kru in proper Thai or Khmer traditions is to get blessed first and then learn how to do the Wai Kru. And the monks or Ajar then will give you a few Pali-Khmer words. But it doesn't mean people have to follow this traditions.

[Hellfighter]

Im, why are you the re-educator? you didn't answer my question... thanks Matt

[gvmartialarts]

Thanks Wesam, a very interesting insight. Do you have an amulet? I have seen one before, with the inscription of 'Fi Aman Allah" before. Are they big in Islamic countries? In relation to Asian countries?
When you quoted my second paragraph, you fail to see what I have written, or perhaps I did not make myself clear. The prayers come from the heart, the verbalisation of the prayer/mantra/kataa or whatever you may call them, is merely a focus point. Most people that practice certain forms of meditation will tell you that to create a focal point that is easy to achieve each time you start mediatation is the first step of your meditation. Similar to starting your cars engine. So when reciting pali etc, the student will have meditated on what they want to achieve before the fight, and when reciting the mantra, you subconsciously ask for the protection etc that you had mediatated on previously, hence my analogy of the starting the car engine. You may know how it all works, but when you just want to get in and go, you just want to turn the key and drive off, not wondering about all the parts that need to move, fire and turn etc.

Im, when you say "proper term is Pali-Khmer," does that mean in Cambodia it is referred to as this, or across the Asian continent? As far as I know, it is not a language as such, and therefore has been evolving and been adopted my most SE Asian civilisations.

But I still stand by what I said, the words you speak are not important, it is what you say with your heart. To believe the spirit world, God, Allah, etc can only understand one language is not only racist, but also means we are all stuffed if we don't work out what language they do speak, and we have been wasting a whole lot of time praying to them!

[humble]

Nah Matt, I don't have one but I do recite various protection invocations on a regular basis, irrespective of fights.

The inscription you mention is merely translated to "In the trust of God" and I would assume it is only an outer sheath as to inside the amulet would be the written invocations which are then sealed in stitched leather and never to be opened or disposed of unless the scholars or sage who wrote them gives permission to do so.

They're very popular with Shi'ite Muslims but Sunni's use them too. They are really a last resort thing as personal invocations and practicing the doctrine is encouraged over just hand me out amulets if you know what I mean. I personally believe this is much more beneficial and change bringing as well when one engages in personal spiritual acts. Psychologically, spiritually and emotionally I believe a person can better help them self this way than by merely opting for an amulet.

Sometimes it is mere inner whisperings that command at one and the amulet could be largely placebo. The scholar would recognize this but may still give them an empty amulet, just to ease their mind/soul from the whisperings of their own inner self.

I think you mean are they big in Arab countries as opposed to Asian and to answer that, not really. Same everywhere but like I said, maybe more of an inclination to them in Shia circles, so you'd find the south of Lebanon and Iranians wearing them more than others.

I get you when you speak about the heart issue and verbalization, just wanted to offer than perhaps also written in the doctrine of a religion is to verbalize it in the tongue of revelation. In case of Muslims, Arabic is the tongue of revelation of the Quran and Prophetic discourse and hence the chosen language for certain prayers and invocations.

I am not that familiar with Pali/Buddhist doctrine hence why I thought maybe that is also the case?

I agree with your last paragraph though, God understands the language of the heart and so you could be verbalizing the most eloquent prayer in whatever language but if you're doing it just for the sake of doing it, or for vanity, or with a heart full of evil traits such as malice, hate, envy and bad intentions, then what use is your eloquent verbalization?

I have to say, this topic is really making me respect all the contributors to this thread. Very interesting input from all, thank you.

[imported_n/a]

This is a good topic & obviously there is many views. Just my personal opinion but I think Muay Thai is above religion & state now, it is a global sport with so many participants of every colour, race & religion.
If I was to fight which wont happen until someone introduces 25 sec rounds I think I would do something to maybe honor the sport, if that means wai khru, mongkon ECT then I would find out exactly what it means to me on a spiritual level which I strongly believe does not have anything to do with religion.

In saying that I think that people who have strong beliefs and stick with those beliefs are doing exactly the right thing there is no point doing something just for the sake of doing it.
I think Ramon Dekkkers did end up doing the wai khru in one of his latter fights when previously he wouldn’t do it because he is not Buddhist. May these things have become Muay Thai tradition now.

[Hellfighter]

but is it "MuayThai" tradition or does/did it originally belong to someone else... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

[imported_n/a]

quote:Originally posted by Hellfighter

but is it "MuayThai" tradition or does/did it originally belong to someone else... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?


Who the Khmer

[Dynamite Drew]

u need to take into context why each person partakes in muay thai -
1. for fighting in ring
2. for fitness
3. for the art
4. combination of the above

my trainer trained us in thai way and as a matter of respect to our trainer, we learnt the traditions and rituals

for me , performing the ram muay before a fight is one the biggest respects i can give my trainer

[imported_n/a]

what about bowing to your trainer prior to training and at the end, I have seen everyone do this.

[Imsta]

quote:Im, when you say "proper term is Pali-Khmer," does that mean in Cambodia it is referred to as this, or across the Asian continent? As far as I know, it is not a language as such, and therefore has been evolving and been adopted my most SE Asian civilisations.


Hi Matt,

You know I am not trying to stir anything, I am just pointing that the sport is related to Pali and that is why across Loas, Thailand and Cambodia they all used Pali-Khmer.
And yes you are correct it’s not really a spoken language as such, but literary language or mystical language.

From my understanding Burma also used Pali, but it’s documented differently to the Pali-Khmer? If some Burmese martial artist or Pali experts can give us some comment it would be nice.

kimura

quote:Who the Khmer

They are black people whom roam South East Asia with very big penises.
[:p]

[imported_n/a]

I know who the Khmer is

[Dynamite Drew]

kimura

yes , i bowed in the thai way to my trainer before and after pad work

its a matter of respect to them

just like when ya bow when ya greet a thai person , espec those older than you

[Hellfighter]

why do you say LOAS when everyone else says LAOS?

[imported_n/a]

I think everyone bow, to their trainer is this a Thai tradition

[Dynamite Drew]

imsta

from what i understand , khmer language is derived from sanskrit and pali and pali-khmer is more of a dilect than a seperate 'language'?

it was spread over sth east asia by travellers/settlers/invaders

if im wrong , please correct me

[Imsta]

Khmer written language derived from the Sanckrit and Pali, but it has evolved and changed over time to Khmer writing today.

Pali-Khmer is mixed with Khmer' words and documented in Khmer writing.

Loas or Laos sorry me bad. [:p]

[Imsta]

http://hubpages.com/hub/Pali-Language

http://www.sanskrit.org/www/Sanskrit/sanskrit.htm

http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/april/khmer.html

http://sojusha.com/newpage10.htm

[Bushi]

So Im, you're Indian ??

[imported_n/a]

quote:Originally posted by Imsta


kimura

quote:Who the Khmer

They are black people whom roam South East Asia

Must be

[Imsta]

Yes! Got a problem? So your a red neck? lol

[Bushi]

LOL, apparantly, now back on topic, cos this is a good one..

[Imsta]

I don't work for telstra. ;)

[Nish]

hey i;m indian since this discussion has reached to sanskrit just letting you all know that ,in india sanskrit is taught in every [school till their tenth Grade
i know a bit but it is pretty hard to learn and i'm not working in telstra either [}:)]:([V]

[Imsta]

sorry nish. They were picking on me.

[Imsta]

Give us some insight of sanskrit?

[Nish]

thats cool Mr Imsta
:D[8D]
wish i had paid more attention in my sanskrit class knowing its importance and its connection with muay thai

[Nish]

Well all i know that is it a very very old langauge still compulsary in school but the words are very very hard to pronounce and even harder to write
pretty sure they dont have alphabets but words that join together to form sentences
but a lot of people back home can speak it very fluently
also with the hindu god Hanuman who has a very big following back esp in the northern region where they have a whole huge mountain named after him ( rumours are that he carried it on his shoulder and moved it somwhere else ), on the top of the mountain they have a point called monkey point , i have been there but somehow it has some magical powers and has ten and thousands of monakeys living in that temple not scared of the humans that come and pay their homage .

U can listen to some sanskrit if u listen to this clip from 2.12 minutes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtQQH8tLe_I&feature=related

[Imsta]

quote:wish i had paid more attention in my sanskrit class knowing its importance and its connection with muay thai

Hi Nish,

I think your getting a head of yourself. If you had only study Sanskrit then you would have never understood Pali also. Pali language was a teaching of Buddhism and Sanskrit was the teaching of Hinduism.

Pali-Khmer is a mixture of Pali spoken words from India and the Khmer language, but it has changed so much.

Even the Khmer Ramayana version has changed since it left India. I don’t think any Indian Gu Ru can read Khmer’ scriptures. Don’t forget it has been over 2000+ years since the Khmer people were exposed to Pali and Sanskrit a mixture of Buddhism and Hinduism. But then again we appreciate and owe it to the mother land of India for her rich culture.

[Dynamite Drew]

this would have to be the best topic ever posted on this site

it so interesting to hear about culture and history and not arm chair critic wannabes waffling on about nothing

thanks imsta for ya feed back too

[dutts72]

apparently Sanskrit is the oldest written language recorded after the collpase of the plaledian civilization? Also holds strong ties to Lithuania language apparently.

Have HH THE 14TH DALAI LAMA chanting for healing in Sanskript for about 90mins....is amazinggggggggggggg!

A question for anyone daring to answer.....define god?

[imported_n/a]

You called

[Imsta]

quote:A question for anyone daring to answer.....define god?

Imsta is God! [:p] Most girls say that in bed!:D

[Nish]

Cheers for clearing that up Imsta . :)

[dutts72]

haha IM good call.....

[Imsta]

Hi Dutts72,

I heard there are 2 DALAI LAMA alive, one is in China and the other is in India? I guess the Chinese government is trying hard to control Tibet.

[dutts72]

Hi IM

There are 2 His Holiness 17th Karmapa's. The 17th Karmapa, Ogyen Trinley Dorje(the official 1, recognized by HH 14th Dalai Lama) who lives in Dharamsala(India) is the spiritual leader of the Karma Kagyu Tibetan Buddhism school and is perhaps being groomed some say to take over the role of HH the 14th Dalai Lama after his passing.

Then there is`Thinlay Thaye Dojre who was recognized by the 14th Sharmar Rinpoche as the contestant to the throne and im pretty sure lives in Delhi. Long and complicated story that one.

But to answer your question after all that...lol. No there are not two Dalai Lamas but there are two Panchen Lama's, one recognized by the Chinese government and one recognized by the Tibetan Government in Exile. Gedhun Choekyi Nyima, who was arrested at the age of 6 by the Chinese in 1995 making him the youngest political prisoner in the world.

Why would they do this? Well the Panchen Lama's are along with the Dalai Lama's the highest ranking Lama's in Gelugpa School of Tibetan Buddhism. Very importantly they are also responsible for finding the incarnation of the next and future Dalai Lama's and vice versa. Hence why it would seem so important for the Chinese to have control of this situation.

Though the present Dalai Lama has been saying for some time now that he will not re-incarnate unless Tibet is freed or he may incarnate somewhere in the West.

[Imsta]

Hi Dutss72,

After the re-incarnation, I often wonders how they work if he’s the real deal? But I guess they normally would know and questioned the child.

I have heard of some really bazaar stories,

A girl India was hit a by bus on her way to school and died. She was re-incarnated into another girl around the same area where her and her mother lived. 12 years later on the day she died she was walking to school and walked by where she had died, the girl remembered where she used to live and came home crying to her first mother whom gave birth to her before she was hit by the bus. She told her mother 12 years later what had happen on her way to school.

I have also seen some with my own eyes, a grandmother whom died and re-incarnated into her granddaughter and at the age where they can start talking they would even tell stories of their past and even started to calling their parents daughter and son etc. When these things happen they normally get a monk to perform a ritual to clean the child spirits.

[imported_n/a]

Are these reincarnation done before or after the wai khru?

Sorry but what does this have to do with topic,

[Hellfighter]

did you know that they reincarnate urine into drinking water on the space shuttle?

in all honesty, there are amazing stories past down thru generations, from one people to another etc. etc. but the topic here is about the Traditions of MuayThai not whether Imsta knows everything or anybody else for that matter

this thread is a great insight into what the members have been taught or have learned thru their own studies... let's keep it going

[Imsta]

blame Dutts72[:p] just kidding.

[imported_n/a]

I would never dare accuse you Imsta of jumping all over a topic which has anything to do with traditions/origins of Muay Thai

[Imsta]

LOl.

Anyway we were talking Wai Kru. The physical movements and spiritual words of Pali-Khmer play an important role of the whole process in the wai kru. That's why we see some fighter is covered in Tatts with Sak Yant. Some fighters repeat words (Sot Pali) on their chest or back in order to pray homemage to their belief.

Check out this site I found on Sak Yant.

http://www.sak-yant.com/

[Imsta]

http://www.sak-yant.com/archive/yanthanuman/hanuman-yantra.jpg

[Imsta]

Can any one read the above words?

[imported_n/a]

Menu No. 34

deep fried ugly fish.

Only kidding, what is that?

[Hellfighter]

you can Imsta, because you've already told us you can... why, because it's in Pali-sanskrit and not in Thai

there is some beautiful Yant in that site

[Imsta]

Dave Hellfighter,

Are you in Thailand? What gym are you from?

[DazMon]

Im are you causing trouble again?

Hellfighter has his own gym in QLD...

[Imsta]

No Daz,

we are just talking about the tradition in Muay Thai

[DazMon]

Hellfighter are you confusing reincarnate with recycle?
I suppose they're similar concepts, but one has to completely disappear I'd say.
So in space any waste matter would never really be gone,
until they finally invent the anti matter beam,
which is what we're all waiting for; it'd make self defence redundant.

[gvmartialarts]

Looks like it says na ma pa ta, but has been changed? It reads on the top "Na Ma" and on the bottom reads Na Ma Pa Ngaa Ta. How close am I Im? For those that want to know, Na Ma Pa Ta is a kataa recited to represent the 4 elements, and/or 4 continents.

[dutts72]

hey IM

I also read that story of the girl in India. in Auto Biography of a Yogi.

Haha Dave funnnny lol.

I wont hijack anymore, i'll leave that to guys in a cave!

[gvmartialarts]

Scratch that, the middle letter is Ya, the 5th element or emptiness. So it should read (abbreviated) na ma ya pa ta, which is water (Na), earth (ma), emptiness (ya), fire (pa) and air (ta). I take this to be written improperly, as the mantra is Na Ma Pa Ta, and if you use the 5th element, it is spoken as namoputtaaya. Hope this helps? Again I am only learning and may have mis-read this. Maybe the "re-educator" can help me?

[Imsta]

Hi Guys,

Just to clear things with people I am not an expert in Pali-Khmer, but have a little understanding. I had the chance to learn Pali and Khmer scripture in Thailand, but was put off by my older brother whom is covered from head to toe with Pali tattoo. I guess my mother and father made sure I didn't follow my brother footstep. Maybe one day when I feel I need to be enlighten I will take the time to learn it properly.

To answer your question Matt,

I only put that to see if people might have a tattoo that’s the same. Yes I can pronounce the above words, but I don’t understand it fully. I’ll ask my old man and get back to you guys.

[Imsta]

Now everybody can read it!

http://www.sak-yant.com/yantpedia/home/public/uploads/newbb/1_458cd220d391e.jpg

http://www.sak-yant.com/khorm/khorm2.jpg

[Mad_Hatter]

quote:Originally posted by dutts72


But to answer your question after all that...lol. No there are not two Dalai Lamas but there are two Panchen Lama's, one recognized by the Chinese government and one recognized by the Tibetan Government in Exile. Gedhun Choekyi Nyima, who was arrested at the age of 6 by the Chinese in 1995 making him the youngest political prisoner in the world.


I think many people would disagree... there is only 1 Panchen Lama...

FreethePanchenLama.org
http://www.tibet.net/en/flash/2007/0407/250407.html
http://www.freetibet.org/campaigns/panchen/background.html

sorry for hijacking

[Hellfighter]

Imsta, yes I do live in Bangkok and I DO also have a Gym registered in QLD... currently I assist farang that wish to train with Saenchai Sor Kingstar or attend a few other Gyms thru out Bangkok

your brother is covered head to toe in Pali sanskrit... damn, he must be one tough lad, I wanted to scream my head off when I got kidney done the other day

Spencer does amazing work on www.sak-yant.com

[Imsta]

Hi Dave,

I am sure you probably know, not all people who has Sak Yant tatts act tough. My brother is very humble of his beliefs. If I ever decides to get a tat I rather just get it Jar (invisible red tatts) on my skins. Have you ever heard of the term Jar?

There are a number of western gyms opening in Cambodia ever thought of opening one there?

[Hellfighter]

haven't heard the term "Jar", but heard the words "sak num mun" used for oil tattoos

I wasn't referring to your brother being "tough" as in I beat little kids, I was meaning the vision of him being covered head to toe he must have awesome pain tolerance... I have tolerated a variety of pain in my life, but receiving Yants in certain areas makes me think I'm a little girl, because it burns!!

haven't openly thought about it to be honest mate, my wife has her job here in Bangers and it looks to be extended for another year or more... would they allow an "M word" Gym to be opened in the land of Khmer?

[Bushi]

quote: would they allow an "M word" Gym to be opened in the land of Khmer

Of course they would, just tell them Im Ouk said suggested opening a WMC registered gym there..;):D

[gvmartialarts]

Not a bad find there Bushi, but I do believe it is missing a few letters.

And Im, I have heard you state that if people wished to get there sak-yant read, you would do it for them? And you asked me if I wanted my tshirt read? Were you being a smart-ass or for real?

And yes you can have red ink or black ink. I believe the invisible ones you are referring to Im are sak-num-mun, which will bleed, but remain invisible when healed.

[Hellfighter]

ah-ha, yeah the red ink stands out like dogs nuts, the oil is the invisible one

[dutts72]

Madhatter yes i agree there is really only one real Panchen Lama, but unfortunately there are 2. Well that's if the real one is even alive?

[Mad_Hatter]

Hey Dutts... i didn't mean to sound mean or anything before...

but yeah no one has seen or heard of him for so long who knows... :(

[imported_n/a]

Can someone please enlighten me as to what all this has to do with Muay Thai traditions.

Not being a smart ass but the last few posts seem to know heaps about this sak pak mak tak or whatever how about a bit of info for us lay persons, i.e. do fighters get specific tattoo's or yant(suppose I have learnt something) and do they have to be done by the monks

[Mad_Hatter]

http://www.nuggetsthaiboxinggym.com.au/content.asp?page=sakyant

have a look here Kimura

[imported_n/a]

From Nuggets website

Sak Yant tattoos are done by buddhist monks using ancient khmer lettering. Yant tattooing is belived by buddhist monks and many asian cultures to have magical powers of protection, and the ability to repel harm and evil from a person. But be warned, one must live by very strict rules to wear Sak Yant!

I had a look Mad Hatter, I still don't get what this has to do with Muay Thai, seems like it is a Buddhist thing, I am not buddhist but I do Muay Thai.

I have not noticed many Thai fighters with tats,

The last line makes sense, I do not live a strict conformative life so I don't think I would be able to get this Sak Yant.

I have a couple of questions hope some can help;

When was the Mongkon started/created, what exactly does it mean, was it made in specific way?

Same with the armelet, & the things around their neck

When the trainer takes the mongkon off the fighters head before fight what do they say to the fighter, is it the same always?

[Mad_Hatter]

Hi Kimura... I'm no expert but I hope this helps...

The reason it is connected with Muay Thai is because most of the rituals (Wai Kru/Ram Muay) and amulets (Mongkon, armbands etc) have meaning and significance as protective items due to blessing, spells, etc performed over them by Buddhist Monks... the Sak Yant tattoos are another form of protective prayer/ spell... and I have read and been told about the rules that go with it...they are extremely hard!

I can't tell you when it started of the top of my head... I have all that info at home (currently in the USA) but yes they are made in a specific way well the 'real' kind are anyways... they often have prayers and amulets woven into them and are made and blessed by the Monks...

Amulets worn around the neck and even waist (Soren, and the Khmer fighters) are blessed and as far as I know are usually given to the fighter by a trainer or other elder/ master.

as for what the trainer says for some it is prayers... others i am really not too sure...

btw this is all from memory so peeps feel free to correct me... (I know you will... lol)

[Imsta]

Hellfighter,

quote:haven't openly thought about it to be honest mate, my wife has her job here in Bangers and it looks to be extended for another year or more... would they allow an "M word" Gym to be opened in the land of Khmer?

I don't know if you can or can't, but I am sure you can take a good educated guess. ;)

Bushi,

One of these days you'll get a Khmer tattoo like many of your so call MT-fighters. hee.hee. Then I can start calling you Khmer' label[}:)]

Matt,

It is my first language so with enough practice I am sure it's like riding a bike. [:p]

kimura,

All of these traditions plays an important role in Muay Thai, but it's funny when these MT fighters speaks in Pali-Khmer in the ring and like to dish the khmer culture. :D

[Imsta]

Hi All,

For those who wants to see the whole ritual for a fighter getting bless.

Before our next show, we will have the weigh in at the temple and will get all our fighters blessed at the temple so come along and see the whole process and ritual. If you want to asked about your Pali-Khmer tattoos feel free to swing by also bring all your scripture picture and ask the monks.

[Hellfighter]

kimura, ever heard of John Wayne Parr, Wanlop Sitpholek & JeanCharles Skarbowsky?

many nakmuay I have seen have 1 or 2, not necessarily large Yant, but there are many that receive their Yant in oil (as do many teachers, nurses, doctors, liars oops I meant Lawyers ;) and military personnel)

Yodsaengklai Fairtex has 5 Yant now... one on each shoulder for his parents, Muut Thanu (Arrow Punch) on each hand and another on his throat

here are some pics I took at a Gym outside of Bangkok:

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/7196/trainerfront1ar1.jpg
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/4039/trainerback1mf5.jpg
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/7306/nakmuay1aty8.jpg

[Imsta]

Dave,

where is yours?

[imported_n/a]

[quote]Originally posted by Hellfighter

kimura, ever heard of John Wayne Parr, Wanlop Sitpholek & JeanCharles Skarbowsky?

Funny I have heard on these fighters,

Have you heard of, forrester, Souwer, meunier, Reece, Spong, badato
These guys have tatts also.

My question is what do these have to do with Muay Thai, the above probably nothing, but the thai's ones by the sound of it do, I was hoping to get some information as to their significance specifically to Muay Thai.

[Hellfighter]

now that's a personal question if I've ever been asked...

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/608/jingjokx2yk9.jpg

[Hellfighter]

the significance is the "personal" belief that they offer protection to wearer... when you get involved with it or are at a samnak (office) when someone receives them and get to witness firsthand the channelling of the "magic" after it is truly amazing... honestly, it is very hard to put in words

but as is said, the "magic" isn't in the application of the tattoos... it's in the words and these words can be applied to a Phra (amulet) also... check this out: VERY GRAPHIC BUT NO BLOOD, JUST VIOLENT!

http://www.mediafire.com/?6isznexnw3j

[Imsta]

is that 2 lizard forming a love heart?

[imported_n/a]

was is that? the ceremony

[Hellfighter]

it's called Kong Grapan: a demonstration of Magic Protection, if you noticed after each devotee gets hit the Ajarn slices thru a piece of paper... a blunt axe would tear the paper

the 2 Jingjok are for Love & Relationship... I had it applied above the tattoos I have for my son and my wife, they also hold "Meet Dtaa" meaning kindness that people will see in you