The sanction debate

[imported_n/a]

I was not into sanctioning bodies but due to recent posts I have had a look into a couple.

Seems the WMC which is very popular but has taken Aus for granted, check out the WBC site http://wbcmuaythai.com/index.php lots more info, up-dates, and ratings look like they are actually looked by the admin people.

Personally I am now leaning towards the WBC purely based on the info I have been able to get off the net,

What is other peoples opinions regarding the sanctioning bodies?

[Imsta]

Kimura,

WBC-Muay Thai is starting to get more recognitions and respects and probably will continue that way. I heard in the US everyone has jumped ship to WBC-Muay Thai. Oh well the more sanctioning bodies the more the politic.

Kun Khmer Renaissance

[imported_n/a]

Hi Im,

that is true will just be more politics,

I only ask because WMC seems to be the most popular some people saying they will only fight for WMC.

I am just curious why people belive one is better than the other, not in a negative way but in a constructive, if there is say 2 or 3 top bodies can there be unification fights ie; WMC, WBC, WKA Champ.

Again just interested as to why people prefer certain bodies

[humble]

I personally prefer WMC at the moment because when you fight "MUAY THAI" you'd like to be judged for "MUAY THAI" style not merely how many times you clock a guy. It's no use performing a Kung Fu Kata if all you do is gymnastic acrobatics, even though some Kung Fu Katas involve acrobatics. The judging criteria should be strictly Kung Fu in orientation.

This is where many sanctioning bodies fail the sport of Muay Thai. Unqualified people with various backgrounds in many other fighting styles but not enough knowledge of the Thai arts or not enough objectivity to judge a fight based on Muay Thai style and rules.

Another example would be putting a pure Muay Thai stylist into a K1 fight. The Muay Thai stylist may own the opponent in the grapple and throw him around alot and get in a knee or two when allowed. It may appear that he is man handling his opponent but if the opponent throws the scoring attacks even though he looks to be dominated, should he be awarded the fight, based on the K1 rules? No, it is stupid to think so.

This is why the WMC does a better job with Muay Thai. All referees, judges and officials must know Muay Thai style rules and how they apply to a fight. They judge fighters based on these rules and those who are purists to the Muay Thai tradition appreciate that... well purists at least in the sense of their fighting style.

I don't know much about the WBC but if they have similar criteria and standards as the WMC in judging and refereeing, then I have no problem fighting under them. From all reports they seem ok though but they still have to prove themselves and a sanctioning body isn't just about whether they can market well or provide a true account of rankings even though they are important.



I know of some people refusing to fight WMC now because they are frustrated and don't quite understand the rules. I really recommend anyone that fights in Muay Thai to undergo the WMC referee and judging course. This will help you in understanding what scores and what doesn't score in a fight. That way when one loses even though they fought aggressively, it may put some perspective on why as I know of quite a few people who are disgruntled but just can't understand the concept of MT rules vs "fighting" rules. MT is a national sport not just a fight. You wouldn't use the same rules in ping pong and badminton as you do in Tennis, as similar as they are.

Just my take.

<center>D-L-C
kettlebellkingdom@hotmail.com </center>

[dekker]

Good points Humble but you always get human error and just doing the course dosen't make them an instant judge (look at when Wendy Lost ??? to the Japanese girl) blind freddy could see that result! and its wont be the first or last time it has happened, over the years i have had boys fight on WKA, ISKA, WMC and WBC shows and there has been very little difference but there are a few selected people who are very good at there jobs and like everything else there are a lot of ****ty ones!and i dont think it will ever change!

[humble]

True that Dekker and if I were to mention any more then let's just say a lot of "officials" wont be happy.

I'm still bitter about Wendy's decision.

I guess my comments are very general though and you're gonna get those discrepancies as you said.

Thing is, how do we get those "Pros", the ones that call it fairly and have the experience behind them to back it to judge and referee?

<center>D-L-C
kettlebellkingdom@hotmail.com </center>

[Bushi]

Cos they're generally the trainers who are too busy prepping their fighters..

"Yours in Bushido"

Bushi

[humble]

Again true, but surely not every trainer is always occupied with a fighter on every fight show.

Seriously, there is much to gain if a sanctioning body had someone with a bit of zeal as it's rep, gunning for much of this change rather than taking hand me downs from unknown and unseen people supposedly at the head of things.

A certain level of power needs to be given to individuals to act. You can't call someone a rep of an org in a state or country and then they're basically powerless to do a thing. That's just putting a face in there for the sake of politics.

Perhaps the WBC can offer that? Perhaps the WMC will change and offer that? I dunno.

It's not easy but it has to happen.


<center>D-L-C
kettlebellkingdom@hotmail.com </center>

[imported_n/a]

I think WMC & MBC & the rest of the bodies should take a look at what is being said here and it will only help them improve.

There will always be many dif sanctions but if a few can run professionally things would be made a whole lot easier. The reason I brought up WMC is that they are widely recognized and I think they need to lift the workrate so they don't end up on the who cares pile.

I wish some one from the sanctioning bodies would get on here and fill the public in to what they are doing.



Edited by - kimura on 25 Oct 2007 14:50:51

[ChrisQ]

quote:
I know of some people refusing to fight WMC now because they are frustrated and don't quite understand the rules. I really recommend anyone that fights in Muay Thai to undergo the WMC referee and judging course. This will help you in understanding what scores and what doesn't score in a fight.


Unfortunately not available in all states. Fingers crossed for Vic soon...

[dekker]

Humble i think Bushi hit the nail on the head with his comment, people who have been around along time usually are trainers and cant do both without some sort of bias/hate towards other gyms or fighters, in my opinion if you have one boy/girl on a promotion dont officiate on it, and use the best people available when top fighters are on ie, interstate or international level fighters, years ago the WKA had a system of officials that did Levels 1-5 five being world titles on a professional level or such, with level one being novice shows with novice officials or beginers/learning shadow judging,with 2-4 being various title level and intermediate shows this worked very well and i belive the standard of officiating was a lot better,if you are going to be a decent official i think you have to treat it like being a fighter do lots of lower level shows, get to see as many different shows you can and collect local and international fight footage, go overseas and watch how shows are judged or refereed i have done this in the UK, Holland, Thailand and Japan they all differ somewhat as a trainer/fighter/official you never stop learning!

[Bushi]

Yeah, and particularly, when you have gyms / trainers / fighters learning to fight "thai style", only to have judges that DO NOT accept / appreciate what has been taught, nor UNDERSTAND the scoring values / techniques, then you end up with BULL5HIT decisions...

Doesn't happen all the time, but in it DOES happen...

As for politics / ego's, well that's another thread..<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>.

I'm sure fellow forum members will know which track I'm heading down...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

"Yours in Bushido"

Bushi

[Imsta]

Bushi maybe you can start judging?

Kun Khmer Renaissance

[Seth_2]

ahhk i have a somewhat related rant..

i think muaythai has progressed, and "thai style" is often outdated. Those who can execute this style properly do not fall in this category, but those who fall short of what it takes to apply this style effectively in the ring are the ones who need to look at the progression of muaythai. By thai style im talking about fighters who only kick, knee and elbow and have some idea that 1 kick is worth a flurry of punches.. and have a strange idea on a scoring hierachy that i dont believe exists. Scoring a muaythai fight comes down to alot of things; control, effectiveness, power, technique, use of defense & counter, evasive skills, amount of unanswered shots landed, pressure (coming forward at your opponent) and so on.. theres alot of things to look at before awarding 10 points to someone for a round..

now as far as 'agression' this is often countered by control and effectiveness.. a great example of this is steph bouquet. She is a fighter who is often on the backfoot, which may look bad in the eyes of judges, however while moving backwards she draws her opponents in and picks them off.. she has the defensive skills and counter skills to be able to do this.. she sucks them into her game and generally wins.

i think some experiences fighters past or present should also put their hands up to get into judging and refereeing.. bias is always going to be in the sport, its something we have to deal with. We see it in AFL with some umpires that appear to pick on players more than others.. but that is life, we deal with it move on and strive to better ourselves. It may make for more down to earth, humble fighters and trainers. If not.. well whenever i fight on shows where bias may be involved im always told to win convincingly.. thats a part of the sport ive come to accept. Honestly if its a close fight, i think people shoult alot of the time let decisions go.. only look to have it over turned if there is really a clear winner, remembering judges only get one look at whats infront of them.. no replays and video analysis.

cheers
mitch.

"One World One Muaythai"

www.myspace.com/killingwithasmile_x

[Bushi]

Im,

I, like quite a few other VICTORIANS that I AM aware of, are just waiting for the WMC Victorian Branch to hold the relevant course, then I'd LOVE to help out where I can, then face the wrath of criticism that comes with it..<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

"Yours in Bushido"

Bushi

[DazMon]

Humble do you know if JNI or Tony Favuzzi are holding a judging course soon?
It'll be sooner than Vic thats for sure...

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It's not rocket surgery
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[Viper]

Bushi, get in contact with the board and start shadow judging, the more judges the better the quality of judging will become.
Shaz

[Viper]

Oh people should not be to hasty to judge a judge until you have walked a mile in their shoes.
Shaz

[ChrisQ]

quote:
Bushi, get in contact with the board and start shadow judging, the more judges the better the quality of judging will become.
Shaz




Bit I think this has been half the problem Sharon, people aren't being taught the proper way to judge, they're just doing it because they're is no one willing to teach.

[Viper]

True Chris, but the board has books and papers on what to look for, whats good whats not ect, anyone can do a "course"but you need hands on experience, sitting with someone who can guide you, and if you dont agree with their "style"you can explain your scores to the board, doing it that way you are learning by experience. I would really like to judge and then Ref eventually but judges get so much crap put on them, sometimes I wonder if I could hold my tounge if someone spat on me!!!!!!!
People need to remember without judges there is no fight, so we all need to support judges and if we dont like their decisions then put it in writing to the board, if they get enough complaints about someone then they will stop asking this person to help at shows.
I know that if I were a judge at a show and say Mat was fighting, I would make it clear before the show that yes I was available but I WOULD NOT judge Mat's fight, I would never want someone to say öh he won cause Sharon was a judge", a statement reflects badly upon Mat as a fighter and myself as a judge, So if we have alot more judges they can be relieved throughout the night, to help avoid any bias decisions.
SO get onto the board get judging and help things grow to a great standard, at least you get to go to the fights for free!!!!!!!!
Sharon
P.S.
What I have written is NOT directed at anyone person.
Respect to you all.

[mick]

comming in a little late on this topic but i cant understand the big sanction debate.
in every sanction there are problem but you have to ake the good with the bad. lets face it most fighters have probaly lost a fight that they should have won and also won a few that they should have lost. it comes down to human error. i have fought in nearly all the santions out there and i dont care who sanctions the fight but more who the promotor is. If the promotor does the right thing and gets good judges then hopefully the fighters will fight again.

WMC may be good for the sport in Australia but let's face it, how can any one say they are the most respected Muay thai sanction the the world. how many of you have fought in thailand? Very hard to win a decision over there.

[vance jones]

WKA ALL THE WAY to many santion groups, big is best.

[CL]

WKA maybe 15 years ago but not these days vance.....

www.riddlersgym.com.au

[harls]

Basically there are two types of sanctioning bodies, one type that has genuine Champion title holders, and then there is the other type that have World Champs almost no one has ever heard of.

I like the first type.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>


"FEAR NONE, RESPECT ALL"

[Lucy Tui]

Something I will always stand by, it is not about the sanctioning it is about the fight..e.g. who you fight? not who the sanctioning body is....????Also the respectability of the promoter helps....A sanctioning body is there to help with rules & regulations of the event making sure officials are doing there job properly and fights are matched accordly. You will always get disagreements with any sanctioning body it is how they the body works there problems out.
Regards
Lucy Tui:)