Burmese/Cambodian/Thai Boxing....

[supermario]

What are the differences in rules apart from the no boxing gloves/hand wraps only, and headbutts, in Bando?? They're essentially the same, right?? Also, a friend from Laos says they having boxing as well, but I've never heard of it except from him and an excerpt I read in Wikipedia that doesn't explain much at all, so I have to take it with a grain of salt. Can someone please elaborate for me. I think it would make for a good article on IK, much like the one for the different sets of rules (above the waist, leg kicks, mod Thai, full Thai) that appeared in the second issue way back in the day. Any info would be appreciated.

[DazMon]

Yes this would make an interesting article!

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[Imsta]

Good I would like to see this article and hopefully they'll mention Kun Khmer on the IK. I am dreaming too much. lol. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Kun Khmer Renaissance

[Imsta]

If possible I'll write the article? But then again no one can understand me. Lol.

Kun Khmer Renaissance

[Jim Papadopoulos]

i cant remember who it was, but someone posted a link recently with a visual diary of fighters life in Cambodia

id love to read some commentary about that

they obviously dont have the same resources they do in Thailand..even the conditions in Myanmar are quite harsh

[Imsta]

It was one our admin guy.

Kun Khmer Renaissance

[TSINGANI]

ive noticed a difference in the scoring of muay thai /kun khmer fights.

My view is that the Kun Khmer fights score punches highly (probably because traditionally, fights were without gloves) and Muay thai scores kicks highly.

My opinion is that rules have changed and developed over the years in order to make the sport more viewer friendly (gloves have been introduced, certain moves have been banned)

Both styles, as well as bando are quite brutal arts (yet beautiful), developed and designed to cause major damage (even death) to the opponent.

Over years it seems, in order for the sport to survive, certain rules and regulations have been enforced to make the sport more acceptable to the casual viewer, fans and society.

Consider the more recent no rules competitions like vale tudo, UFC, and Pride FC ..... Each are promoted as no rules events, however there are a number of rules in place in order to keep the fights entertaining to a wide audience (does anyone remember the early UFC tournaments were groin shots were perfectly legal??? are no rule fights that entertaining??? not for me anyways)

In old-school khmer, muay thai and bando events, if you didnt knock your opponent out in the 3 or 5 allocated rounds, the fight was considered a draw.

Since scoring has been introduced these styles have adapted.

We all know that different judges may score the same fight differently.

Some favour aggresion, some style and eloquence and some may fall for showmanship. Fighters are aware of this and fight accordingly.

In summary... these styles have been developed over hundreds, maybe even thousands of years and they continue to entertain us all no matter where they originate.

Theres nothing better than watching two top quality fighters having a dip.........we all love it... thats why we're on this forum.

[Bushi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukqmCiedafU&mode=related&search=

"Yours in Bushido"

Bushi

[dutts72]

Yer Lao has there own martial art as does Vietnam and India etc etc..

Whittee Thang Nak Lrop
Calcutta Karma Kids Project....INDIA BOUND

[supermario]

The following are general summaries available on-line pertaining to the history and origins of the various forms of native kickboxing in the South-East Asia region.

Muay Thai, also known as Thai Boxing or “The Art of the Eight Limbs”, is the Thai name for a form of hard martial art practiced in several South-East Asian countries including Thailand. It is known as Pradal Serey in Cambodia, Tomoi in Malaysia, Muay Lao in Laos, and Lethwei in Myanmar (Burma). The different styles of kickboxing in South-East Asia are analogous to the different types of Kung Fu in China or Silat in the Malay archipelago. Muay Thai has a long history in Thailand and is the country's national sport. Traditional Muay Thai practiced today varies slightly from the ancient art Muay Boran and uses kicks and punches in a ring with gloves similar to those used in Western boxing. Muay Thai is referred to as "The Science of Eight Limbs", as the hands, shins, elbows, and knees are all used extensively in this art. Thus, a master practitioner of Muay Thai has the ability to execute strikes using eight "points of contact as opposed to two points (fists) in Western boxing and four points (fists, feet) used in the primarily sport-oriented forms of martial arts. Most of the information about Muay Thai's early history comes from archeological evidence and records from other countries such as China. It is known that martial arts resembling Muay Thai have long been practiced throughout much of South-East Asia. It's origin in Thailand can be traced back to the older Muay Boran ("ancient boxing"). This was the form of unarmed combat probably used by Siamese soldiers in conjunction with Krabi Krabong, the weapon-based style. As with most of South-East Asia, Thai culture is based on that of China and India. Both countries had a hand in the development of local martial arts. Indian kickboxing forms such as Adithada remarkably resemble both Muay Boran and Muay Thai and it has been said that every move in Muay Thai has a similar equivalent in Shaolin kung fu. The precedence Muay Thai and Muay Boran give to the kick is probably indigenous to Thailand and the surrounding area since Indian boxing uses kicks sparingly and most southern Chinese styles are punch based.

Muay Boran, which translates to "Ancient Boxing", is the predecessor to Muay Thai. Muay Boran's age makes it hard to trace its origins. Archeological evidence suggests that martial arts similar to Muay Boran have been practiced in several South-East Asian countries as much as 2000 years ago. These were most likely aided in their development by Indian and Chinese martial arts brought through the general flow of culture into South-East Asia from China and India. The training regime was probably developed by or borrowed from the ancient military. The aim of Muay Boran was to help a warrior survive a battle after the loss of his weapons in battle. The style is quite efficient in that it maximizes the amount of damage that each blow can inflict, and effective in that it can easily lead to the death or serious injury of the opponent. Most notably, Muay Boran emphasizes the use of extremely powerful elbow and knee techniques, and combinations thereof, always thrown at full force and speed, with the intent to overcome one's adversary as quickly as possible in anticipation of another opponent in close proximity or about to attack. Muay Boran styles were categorized into Muay Thasao (Northern), Muay Korat (Eastern or North-Eastern), Muay Lopburi (Central) and Muay Chaiya (Southern). Various techniques in Muay Boran are forbidden in present day Muay Thai tournaments and competitions. Even in Thailand, it is becoming increasingly difficult to find a school willing to teach it as they prefer to focus on "modern" Muay Thai, since this is more easily exploitable as a form of income. Today, many schools who claim to offer Muay Boran simply teach Muay Thai and sell it under the name of Muay Boran.

Pradal Serey is the name of the centuries old kickboxing martial art of Cambodia. Pradal Serey is the Khmer style of a system of Indochinese martial arts known universally worldwide as Muay Thai. Pradal means "Fight" and Serey means "Free". The literal translation means "Free Fighting". Pradal Serey is founded on four techniques consisting of fists, kicks (from the shins and feet), and elbow and knee strikes. The clinch is also used to wear down the opponent. Compared to their Thai counterparts, the Cambodians tend to be more elusive and shifty in their fighting stances. The Khmer style also tends to use more elbow techniques than the other regions. Modern Pradal Serey differs from the original art. The technique and moves of the art have changed to support the sport version seen today. It is considered one of the national sports of Cambodia and is also known as Kbach Kun Khmer, Sovanna Phum, Traditional Khmer Boxing or Brodal Serei; depending on the translation. Pradal Serey was developed in Cambodia around the 9th Century during the Angkor era, when the Khmer Empire dominated and controlled most of what are now Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos. It was widely used among the Cambodian military to protect the country from being invaded by its rival nations. The art is believed to be the fighting system of the Angkor army and one of the reasons why the Khmer Empire was such a dominant force in South-East Asia.

Lethwei or Lethawae (Read as "Let-whae"); also known as Burmese Boxing and Myanma Traditional Boxing, is a form of kickboxing which originated in Myanmar (Burma). Lethwei is in many ways similar to its siblings from neighboring South-East Asian countries such as Tomoi from Malaysia, Muay Lao from Laos, Pradal Serey from Cambodia, and Muay Thai from Thailand. If Thai Boxing is “The Science Of Eight Limbs”, then Lethwei can be called “The Science Of Nine Limbs”; due to the allowance of head butts. In comparison, Lethwei can be interpreted as being bolder and more extreme. Burmese boxers are said to be slightly bigger and taller than their Thai counterparts. The techniques are a bit slower and stronger than in the other South-East Asian kickboxing forms. Participants fight without gloves or protection, wrapping only their hands in hemp or gauze cloth. Rules are similar to Muay Thai but allow and encourage all manner of takedowns along with head butts. In fact, until the mid 1930s when Muay Thai was modernised through the introduction of timed rounds, western style boxing gloves, and the elimination of head butts, both Lethwei and Muay Thai fought under the same rules. Fights were traditionally held outdoors in sandpits but in present day modern times are now held in rings. Popular techniques in Lethwei include leg kicks, knees, elbows, head butts, raking knuckle strikes, and takedowns.

Tomoi is a Malaysian name for the South-East Asian martial art known in Thailand as Muay Thai, in Cambodia as Pradal Serey, in Myanmar (Burma) as Lethwei, and Laos as Muay Lao. Tomoi refers to Siku Lutut, which translated literally from Malay is "Elbows Knees". Tomoi shares the common history of the various South-East Asian forms of kickboxing which were based on Chinese techniques with some Indian influence. It is not known exactly when Tomoi was first practiced, but it is most widely practiced in Northern Malaysia along the Thai border. The Terengganu state traded extensively with Angkor and was captured by Siam in the early 1800s. Tomoi was probably brought into what is now Malaysia long before this time since northern states like Kelantan have always been home to ethnic Thais. Even before British colonisation, it was a popular pastime among not only Thais, but Malays, Chinese and Indians as well. It remained so until 1990 when the Kelantan government under the administration of PAS banned a number of traditional arts including Malay attire, dances, and Tomoi along with them. In late 2006, the ban was abolished and the art was again allowed to be practiced under the proposed name name of "Muay Kelate". The preferred name used by promoters is "Freestyle kickboxing" while those from outside Kelantan often just call it Muay Thai.

There was no information in regards to Muay Lao as readily available as that of the other arts covered, but as is evidenced, it is acknowledged in each of the summaries presented, and thus, provides credibility to its existence and practice.

The following excerpt was found in the latter part of the Pradal Serey summary, however, some of it is difficult to comprehend, specifically the implication of Thailand wanting to rename South-East Asian Boxing as Muay Thai or Thai Boxing, seeing as the art is, as stated in the very same summary, globally recognised as Muay Thai or Thai boxing, not as South-East Asian Boxing, which as also stated in the Pradal Serey summary, is actually one of the names used in Cambodia for the art. This may or may not have played a part in Thailand's refusal to accept the name. This was not included as part of the Pradal Serey summary as it makes an interesting topic for speculation on its own, which would in fact have been greatly more so had the responses of the other nations implicated also been included. The excerpt read as follows:

At an ASEAN meeting in 1995, Thailand wanted to rename South-East Asian Boxing as Muay Thai or Thai Boxing. The Cambodians proposed to rename the sport as "Sovanna Phum Boxing” or "SEA Boxing", which would represent Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, and Myanmar (Burma). Sovanna Phum means "Golden Land" in both the Khmer and Thai, which originally came from the language of Pali and refers to mainland South-East Asia. "SEA" is a popular acronym referring to South-East Asia. Unfortunately, Thailand would not compromise. In a battle of cultural heritage, neither country is giving up.

It is understandable that Thailand would not want to rename its national sport, seeing as they globalised, sanctioned and marketed the art to the point of the professional status, respect, and following it enjoys today. This is not to say all evidence points to the art originating from any particular country, but that the dominant exponent in the world today is the nation of Thailand. It should be recognised that through war, politics, or religion, the art may have suffered in some regions. It is for this very reason that its existence in Thailand's neighbouring countries prior to the worldwide phenomenon it has become today, in fact, all the way back to the founding cultures and civilisations of what is now the South-East Asia region as known to modern world today, must be respectfully acknowledged by all those who claim loyalty to the roots of the sport.

[Imsta]

Hi supermario,

Very interisting. Can I ask you a question when did Thailand put this sport into the ring?

Kun Khmer Renaissance

[dutts72]

Hi Im was it around the 1920's?

Whittee Thang Nak Lrop
Calcutta Karma Kids Project....INDIA BOUND

[supermario]

Hello Imsta, I'm not sure of the exact date, but according to the WMC official site:


The matches then were not fought in a ring as we know it today - for Muay Thai that is a recent innovation. Any available space of the right size was used, a courtyard, a village clearing.

It wasn't till the reign of King Rama VI that the standard ring surrounded by ropes came into use, as did time keeping by the clock. Before this period, time keeping was done by floating a pierced coconut shell on a boat of water. When the coconut piece sank, a drum signalled the end of the round.

[imported_n/a]

I have just picked up for the grand outlay of $24 three DVD's of the 2006 Burma versus Thailand hemp glove matches.

Brief outlay of the event. Held on the banks of river bordering Thailand and Burma (Thai side) a makeshift rope ring is set up. Two ref's - one from Burma one from Thailand - with contestants signing a waiver for no liability in case of disability or death. Three rounds three minutes win only in case of KO or DQ. Only rule - no striking on the ground.

Participants are matched in weight category however experience seems to be a significant discrepancy. Thai fighters seem better defensively however Burmese certainly make up for this in ferocity, particularly in the first round.

Interjecting the fight's is commentary and observations about the traditions and rituals shown. Both Burmese and Thai forms of preliminaries are shown.

Tapes are available from those vidoe tape traders at some major shopping centers.

[supermario]

I saw those today PIRA-PIRA!! Well, volume 3 anyway. Would you know if there is only 3 volumes?? They're only $8 bucks each too.

[Imsta]

Hi Supermario,

Where are you from?

Kun Khmer Renaissance

[supermario]

Imsta, officially, I live in Brisbane by way of El Salvador. Unofficially, from the Mushroom Kingdom by way of Nintendo.

[imported_n/a]

quote:
I saw those today PIRA-PIRA!! Well, volume 3 anyway. Would you know if there is only 3 volumes?? They're only $8 bucks each too.




Three only that I know of. Earlier event's have been out but rarely I have two taped from a Thai TV special. Bushi mentioned the Thai shop in Collingwood I think - checking that out at the weekend.

[DazMon]

Yeah I've been meaning to get there too Paul.
Got no fighters on our show anymore?
D

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[imported_n/a]

No. Do you know the address the shops at or name?

[DazMon]

3 doors down from Ying Thai, near the bridge?

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[Imsta]

It’s good to have these discussions, it helps educate and re-educate some people. Lately we have seen a generation of ignorance on the bulletin, some people haven’t even heard of Burmese Boxing, Loas Boxing and Khmer boxing etc. When I have time, I will upload the geographic time-frame and the influence of South East Asia martial arts. And of cause we will touch base on Khmer martial art. lol

Kun Khmer Renaissance

[supermario]

It is good discussion, I've always been curious about this topic and am always keen to learn more. Imsta, do you know of any good text books that are available?

[Imsta]

I used to keep in contact with an author, "VG" was working on a Book called, "The Vanish Flame Bare knuckle of South East Asia." I am not sure if he has finished the book yet, but I can say me name might be in the book. Lol. See below for his email below:

VG (Vincent)
blackdiamondcobra@yahoo.com



Kun Khmer Renaissance

[Jim Papadopoulos]

very interesting topic the south east asian martial arts..id be interested in more resources on the subject

ive looked at the thaing (american) website...any others of interest?

[Imsta]

Hi Jim Papadopoulos,

To understand South East Asia martial art you have to understand the history of the people whom once ruled the area.

The Mon and Khmer people are long distance cousin they have played an important rolled of the sport developments. From a bare knuckle into bound fists and to the modern day ring sport.

Here are some of the links about them. (Not about the sport, but the people, language and culture etc.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mon_people

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/east_asian_history/114999

http://www.anu.edu.au/~u9907217/languages/Khmer-Cambodian.html

Kun Khmer Renaissance