Drug Testing

[gvmartialarts]

Hi, this has probably been posted before, but comes up a bit in conversation, especially from people who don't generally know a great deal about the sport.

Are we able to be drug tested? Has anyone heard of any Australian fighters being tested? If we aren't being tested, why not? It would be naive to think there are no drugs in this sport, and a shame people feel they need to take drugs to get the edge.

This isn't a thread to bag fighters who we "think" are on drugs, but a discussion to identify if we have a drug culture in Australian MuayThai & kickboxing, and what we can do to combat it.

- Mat

Kai Muay Sor.NakSoo
Thai Boxing

[Zviggy]

The ASDA (Australian Sports and Drugs Agency) is the organisation that tests athletes around Australia. I dont think Muay Thai or Kickboxing is on their list of sports to test.

Boxing is so why isnt Muay Thai and Kickboxing/MMA? Is it because no authority governs these sports in Australia?

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infinitemma.com - Australia's leading MMA website.

[jt]

Without being controversial I will be controversial several big names would fall by the wayside if there was solid consistent drug testing in Kick Boxing and K1 heavyweights would not be the spectacle it is if there were stringent testing so probably best that kickboxing is not tested. Good on most of the lighter guys and genuine champions in Thailand cos they know only ONE DRUG, "BHW" it is more potent than all the others combined and is guaranteed to leave you safe in a drug test and with your morals intact!!

[harls]

However, there has been testing at quite a few shows..

[gvmartialarts]

So for the benifit of the spectacle, we should turn a blind eye to the "several big names" and show the up & comers & general public that it is o.k to do drugs because if you put on a great show, it doesn't matter if you are pinging off your head? What about being role models? These fighters are usually in fantastic shape, fantastic cardio endurance, and a strong mind-set, most of the fighters etc I know are great people, great role models, but there are some out there that will tarnish their name, and the sports we love, be it muayThai, MMA or kickboxing.

I know for my money I want to see two athletes at their peak, battling it out with their hearts, not what extra chemicals are running through their veins. I don't want to see steroid using, speed taking people showing me how good the "gear" is they get.

We have a Martial Arts Board here in Vic, and I am sure other states must have someone able to check into these matters. Are thes guys able to do anything?

- Mat

Sor.NakSoo ThaiBoxing

[jt]

Harls I stand corrected what shows are they.

And challenge any one to tell me they agree with testing but, I will then ask who their favourite fighters are???

A lot of big exciting and popular fighters would not last a month in a genuinely tested professional sport like AFL NRL or even Olympic Boxing be it for performance enhancing or recreational drugs.

[TSINGANI]

It is my belief (i may be naive) that using steroids is not common in fight sports. Fighters have to maintain a certain weight in order to fight in their chosen division. Adding extra muscle mass would very likely increase the fighters weight, therefore it will put the fighter into a different division.

The art of fighting has more to do with the mental strength (techniques and clarity of mind) than it has to do with physical strength.

Use of steroids may make you more "ballsy" during your performance(fight), however, extra muscle mass/strength is not the key to victory, in fact it may even inhibit your abilty to fight at a maximum level due to the altered physical and mental state.

At the end of the day...this sport requires more brain than braun, which may be contrary to popular perception, but if u ask any fighter.... there is no drug that will equal proper diet, training and preperation.

I hope some forum members/fighters/athletes can add to this topic in order to clarify the position i am taking and further discourage people entering this sport from using illicit drugs to enhance their performance.

[Viper]

I know of a fighter who took a banned drug (but available on perscription)to lose weight for a fight, the fighter just couldn't shift 3kgs and needed a hand. After bouncing off the walls all afternoon he decided it wasn't worth it and went back to starvation.
Sharon

[TSINGANI]

dont get me wrong... i know that drugs are readily available if u want them....from diaretics...to testoterone enhancing pills available at ur local health food shop, or ur local gym...its just that...do these drugs really enhance performance??????


in this sport... id like to think not

[Rob McIntyre]

quote:do these drugs really enhance performance??????

I think you will find the biggest benefit these types of drugs give a fighter is the ability to train harder at every workout and recover more quickly afterwards.

That would be a big bonus for someone training their guts out for 6 to 8 hours a day... more quality training than your opponent has to beworth something for any fighter and would give them an edge.

BTW, I am not condoning the use of course.

Rob McIntyre - Gladstone
"in your training do not forget the spirit or the humility of a beginner"

[khys]

without naming names i know for a fact of a big name fighter who brought gear before his fight with zambidis. he got it from a friend of mine and to look at the guys build you never would of expected it.

[Adambjjoz]

I'm not sure about MuayThai, but i did an interview with Royler Gracie last year & he said that in the K-1 MMA events, you get a percentage of your fight purse held, untill you cleanly pass the piss test. Same with Pride FC/Bushido. The UFC also tests fighters in all fight's.

I assume if K-1 tests the MMA fighters, they would have to also test a certain percentage of normal K-1 fighters, at least.

[jt]

Sorry Adam but lets not be naive if what u claim is true witheld purses would mean jerome Bob Sapp and plenty of others would be struggling to make an earn. For thos e who dont know much or want to believe that the world is beauiful check out Briggsy's new book Heart, Soul, Fire and have a look at what Paul tells from his own mouth and he was hard as nails trained like a demon and still got off his head frequently something that could not be tolerated in truly tested sports.

[harls]

Jt, you do realise I would have to be braindead to post what shows have had testing before. One has to assume that a drug cheat could be reading this topic(especially with the obvious title) and would then have an idea of what shows to stay clear of.

[Kano]

I think that maybe "important" fights like titles etc should be randomly tested - or if the sport wants to get serious then every title fight. It is a huge cost to the fighter/promoter that eventually gets passed on to the fans.

Kane

[Zviggy]

Whats the point in promoters testing fighters? Yes they can ban them from participating on their show, but the fighter will just move on to another promoter.

Drug Testing has to be done by an authority that can ban the fighter from fighting anywhere in Australia and that kind of authority in australia wont be set up anytime soon.

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infinitemma.com - Australia's leading MMA website.

[gman]

If our sport really wants to be seen and accepted as mainstream and recieve the recognition it deserves then adopting a drug testing policy will have to play a major part. Sanctioning bodies will have to have sign on to anti-doping agreement policy with ASADA and State, National and International titles will then have to be tested.

[jt]

Gman you are correct however infighting, promo differences, sanctioning body differences: all mean that there is little unification in our sport. I am a retired fighter who rather than climb aboard the gear bandwagon I retired disillusioned as I attempted to go from cruiser champ to heavy contender naturallly so I know first hand the effects that this has on our sport. Good on the Jason Sutties and ... I cant think of any others Slowinski probably all I can think of that have successfully say have made transition the slow and hard way. Until we unify the sport as WMC is attempting to do I wil continue to ply my trade using my hands only as at least there is testing in the ABA and Im not going to damage my areer or health running into a 135kg pin cushion!!

[mezza]

I think you will find that while the sport is not federally funded, it will not have compulsury drug testing, only voluntary,unless the sanctioning bodies change that, and as mentioned, this is quite expensive.
If it was a federally funded sport, it would have compulsory drug testing. Any sport that uses government money will have in/out of competition testing both random and with notice.

[Alan Wong]

As a representative for the WMC and IFMA, we have had discussions regarding drug testing in Muay Thai. I am also a member of the Boxing and Martial Arts Advisory Committee to the SA Sports Minister. Muay Thai (Amateur) is not yet a recognised sport in Australia but we are in the process of applying for recognition to the Australian Sports Commission.

Mezza is correct. Drug testing is expensive. In order to get that happening the sport must be federally funded and Muay Thai will eventually be that if everything goes well.

As a trainer, I am totally opposed to performance enhancing drugs. However it is very difficult for anyone to police. It would great if drug testing is the norm in all combat sports. K1 test all fighters before and after a fight. This happened to Paul Slowinski in Sapporo. How far they go with the testing, I don't know.




Edited by - Alan Wong on 30 Aug 2006 16:40:58

[gman]

I agree mezza, as olympic sports, Boxing Australia, Taekwondo Australia and Judo Australia are tested regularly, but also World professional boxing oranisations such as WBA, WBC,IBF etc have mandatory testing for all their title fights, and don't recieve government funding. Maybe the WMC/IFMA which is gaining greater recognition as the peak body for MuayThai could lead the way which may further enhance their application for recognition for peak body status by the ASC. I can't see why eventually all legitimate sanctioning bodies couldn't follow suit. If it means that some are caught out so be it. I'd rather see a level playing field for all competitors than someone whos wins because he/she is on the juice or using chemicals etc. I guess we have to ask, are we prepared hold our fighters up as role models for kids to look up to, or do we just keep turning a blind eye and accept the status quo. The only drawback then would be cost of testing and who pays, the Govt Authority or promoter.

[jt]

Thaks Alan for shedding some very credible light on the subject its good to hear from someone at the top end of the sport at the moment unlike all us has beens and key board freaks!

Interesting to hear that about K1 obviously they are trying or maybe just selective. Any way good luck to yourself and Paul as you churn through the world of heavyweights.

[mezza]

gman, its not just olympic sports that get tested, it is any sport that has any form of federal funding even if its at the grass roots like afl, nrl etc
the government does not fund organisations as such, but a sport as a whole. so boxing yes is a funded sport at amatuer level but the organisations have decided to continue on with the cleanliness of the sport and the appropriate parties (ASDA, WADA) do help out and negotiate arrangements with them.
I hope for the sake of the sport an arrangement can be made with the appropriate parties to make/keep the sport clean. Without the support of the funding, it will be a big ask and an even greater task to to make it happen and get everyone behind it.
It will be a big change for the athletes involved having people turn up unannounced and getting them to pee in a beaker while they are being watched like a hawk to make sure they are actually peeing themselves and not using someone elses. Hope no suffers stage fright!

[jt]

Good call Mezza its long over due I'm personally tired of seeing several big name stars that would be disraced cheats if they were in AFL and League etc poor Wendell Sailors career is over because of a line of coke so too Mitch Sargent from Cowboys last week and Andrew Walker had a cone and finds himself playing union uin France after a 2 year ban ended. Yet here we are and over thirty per cent of our champions are bandied around like legends to our kids when in actual truth they are frauds! (or cheats rather)

Just my thoughts

[Zviggy]

Yeah any sport that is federally funded can get drug tested. I remember working at a junior surfing contest with Under 18 surfers when the ASDA van rocked up to test everyone.

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infinitemma.com - Australia's leading MMA website.

[Adambjjoz]

JT, why do you still not believe K-1 fighters get drug tested? I told you already that the MMA fighters in K-1 are tested, Alan told you that the normal K-1 fighters are tested, too. You have not one, but now 2 sources telling you that the fighters are being tested. Not selectively, either.

You throw out names like Bob Sapp, etc..... but before he came to K-1, he was a regular in the NFL scene & they get tested there, on a regular basis, too.

If these fighters are being tested before AND during their K-1 careers, yet they dont piss hot, why do you still accuse them of being on the gear? Further, how is it K-1's fault, when they mandatory test all fighters?

What do you expect K-1 to do?

Use psychics to find the cheaters?

Just because someone's huge, you cant accuse them of being on the gear. Otherwise we'd just **** all the Samoans & Islander's out of pro sports :)

[jt]

Adam I didnt mean to ruffle your feathers and I am 120kg natural Im not debating that there are huge coconuts and huge guys who are genetically superior to myself and other heavies. I do however know a lot more behind the scenes stuff than I shall ever dispose and remember I'm not jus referring to K1 Japan I'm more referring to our home grown stars. I will never disclose the fightrs I'm close to but trust my name JT (Just Truth).

It is fact that several I'll go as far as saying, many, heavies do whatever it takes to stay in the heavy weight division and look ripped . A few poor stars to cop it in years of late Tim Sylvia UFC, Wendell Sailor Union, half the universe in cycling, weight lifting, Mitchell Sargent NRL, James Toney Boxing, how many K1 drug suspensions have we had of late. That must mean we have the cleanest bunch of individuals in any sport
Your name is Adam BJJOZ so if you have been to Brazil and trained at one of if not the best teams there youll know one of their stars that is in Pride loves the gear, he must have been tested so why did nothing show up any way there are people who will hate me and at the end of the day nooone cares so I'll wind up now

[pumba bamalang]

i rekon drug test should be compulsory......sick of seeing juiced up fighters.and the chance of catching hep or aids etc.clean it up a little..
get the cheating fuks out of the game....

[jt]

I'm back was thinking how much I hate this topic and was glad I was finished talkin of it when I ran across something bout an govt. inquiry into NFL in Americas rife drug abuse so Adam before you use that ad a crutch to defend Bob Sapp have a look how credible the NFL s testing is apparently NFLs defintion of banned substance and the Olympic VCommitees defintion is so differing that if Thorpey were in NFL he'd probably weigh 140kg and have broken records in weight lfting as well as swimming. Lets remember locally how some fighters fight at 20kgs more than their weight and in a short time go up then down and mange to stay ripped however nooone ever questions this at weigh in I believe it is common practice in this sport to cover up or turn a blind eye rather than risk losing credibility cos hey at end of the day we know over half world wide and oz promotions are not tested(fairly and honestly)
Until it is I will continue to graft away hands only in ABA super heavy's.

ps I miss the kicks but I'm not gonna jump in a fight on Fox risk gettin upstaged by a try hard roider then hear the commentry blowing him at how good he is !! Not that that has happened far from it Iv only ever lost once to a natural monster jus in case any one wonders bout my motives for such passion on this subject

[DUMP]

Whats the point?I might be wrong,but i doubt it,i think some of the above mentioned fighters are on the gear yet they piss clean.Masking,mmm!!!

[Adambjjoz]

It's true to a point that masking agents will always be 1 step ahead of the testers, but as far as the drug tests are concerned, it seems like roids, human growth hormone, e.p.o. and other performance enhancers are being tested for. As far as the NFL goes, yes, they have different standards - but only in terms of the punishments given for the drug use - it's not like their tested for less substances, than those in say the NBA. And those who are taking them, are being busted, too. Across a multitude of sports, too. Pride booted out Mark kerr for failing a drug test years ago now, that was the last big-name Pride fighter to get busted, that i know of.

As far as Brazilian fighters....... i cant say, i've never been to Brazil. I've met/trained with/interviewd Royler & Royce Gracie, Roberto Traven plus a Machado here in Oz, but that's about it for the Brazilian fighters. Royler and Royce both said they got drug tested in Pride, K-1 and UFC fight's. As far as freestyle wrestling here in Oz is concerned - yeah, we get normal Olympic type drug testing for that. BJJ doesn't get that testing yet here in Australia as it's too expensive for the federation & we ain't got no federal funding etc.... yet. Same with the MuayThai, i'd say.

[gvmartialarts]

As I am a Victorian, and as such, I am subject to the legislation enforced by the Professional Boxing & Martial Arts Board here in Victoria. Does anyone know their stance on drug testing? Are Noel or any of the other guys jump on this forum? Interesting to know their thoughts, opinions, jurisdiction etc. Might wait till tomorrow night at Tony & Karen's show to ask them.

- Mat

Sor.NakSoo ThaiBoxing

[gman]

Mat,
Did you get a reply from the Noel from the Professional Boxing and Combat Sports Board ?

[Gards30]

I think that whenever there is highly competetitve people, there is drug cheating. . .I used to know a wieghtlifter (aus) and i brought up drug cheats and how sad it was and that they aren't really champions - he got very upset and he said that a large proportion of athletes were using drugs that were not able to be tested for, and that they were only doing it to stay competetive because everyone else was doin it. . . .i dunno man - i'm not sure how a title would feel to me if i knew i cheated.

"Superficial goals lead to superficial results." - Attila the Hun

[GoGo]

I have a Rugby league and union background and coming to Muay thai via boxing I can safely say the sport is flooded with drug (Performance enhancing ones!) problems. You only have to compare the Aust amateur boxing team or a European team they are traind at an elite professional level yet alot of their fighters physically look lame physique wise compared to a lot of top gun kickboxers this is not due to kickboxers genetics or training harder as I'll challenge any wan*#r who wants to defend kickboxing to spend a week training with the soviet amateur B team and tell me they dont have the genetics or hard training to look as good as some of our Kickboxers!!!

Plenty of fighters will agree with me but none too many willpublicly agree. and the average promoter does not care as a mega roided sells heaps of tickets and makes them bigcash so who cares at the end of the day! I'll admit my favourite fighters are ppl I truly suspect or know personally to be on performance drugs so I dunno why I'm even responding to this thread as If it wasnt for my fave fighters I wouldnt follow or be involed in the sport.

I will say though if testing comes in I'll be the first to put my hand up to be tested!

Don't take a knife to a gun fight! So train harder than the next guy