Traditional Thai style training for bigger people

[staves]

I realise for a lot of people thai style training is the gospel, and training in thailand is a pilgrimage, but after having a look at the training schedules at these camps: http://www.lannamuaythai.com/ and http://www.kaewsamrit.com/trainingroutine/index.html , I've gotta say that seems like way overtraining for a guy my size (90kg) and I doubt I could ever work up to that level.

When I was over in Holland, some of the dutch guys I met there said their fighters will train for 2 hours max at a time twice a day, but very hard and fast, and in this interview ( http://www.ironlife.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62646&highlight=lebanner+interview ) Lebanner says "In the morning I do kickboxing or boxing during 1h30. In the evening I run. I work out twice a week, the rest of the time I walk and do cardio training.".

So basically, what do you view as optimal training for someone your weight?

Not that I ever plan to be a fighter, its more that I would of liked to have had the thai training experience, but now I am not so sure.

[Lothene]

You missed this bit on the Kaewsamrit site:

"This is routine followed by the top Thai boxers in the gym and foreign students are not expected to reach this level straight away and are given time to build up to a level comfortable for them."




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Here and now, we are gone in a heartbeat, a dream in the passage of time.
Chances are fading, this world isn't waiting, the moment is passing you by.

[humble]

staves is correct, traditional thai training is not suited to bigger people. Doing an 8 km run prior to training will not do any favors to a guy whos weighing 90kg plus. Joints and back are affected, from bearing that weight. What many people get wrong is thinking that all that endurance work is needed. Fighting is not endurance based, it is mostly anaerobic/lactic acid threshold type training. This is why many fighters can start strong but finnish weak. Personally I dont run. If i do its once a week or every two weeks just for the cardiovascular health benefits.



Dont mistake my harshness for strength and neither mistake my kindness for weakness.

[Alan Wong]

Humble

I think running is a very important part of Muay thai training. Look at Paul Slowinski for example. He is 106 - 110 kgs and he still runs everyday. Without his running it will be impossiple for him to keep up the pace he goes when he fights. have a look at that fight against Ron Sefo (early tis year in K1 Anzacs). Tell me how many heavyweights can keep a pace like that.

Of course if you are not use to training the way the thais train then you'll struggle. Even the lighter guys can't keep up. When i send my fighters to Thailand, it'll take them at least a week before they can even think about completing the whole session. Endurance is a big part of training and fighting. It has to be because if you don't have any endurance then it will be impossible to finish up strong. Of course your aerobic fitness plays a key role as well.

Just my thoughts.

[babyface]

"I'll retire the day I'm not able to do the show, the day I can't make the audience's panties wet anymore." LeBanner is funnie ****..

[staves]

quote:
You missed this bit on the Kaewsamrit site:

"This is routine followed by the top Thai boxers in the gym and foreign students are not expected to reach this level straight away and are given time to build up to a level comfortable for them."




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Yep. I saw that bit mate, but I was thinking more along the lines of this is over training regardless, and would be detrimental to muscle development.

[staves]

quote:
staves is correct, traditional thai training is not suited to bigger people. Doing an 8 km run prior to training will not do any favors to a guy whos weighing 90kg plus. Joints and back are affected, from bearing that weight. What many people get wrong is thinking that all that endurance work is needed. Fighting is not endurance based, it is mostly anaerobic/lactic acid threshold type training. This is why many fighters can start strong but finnish weak. Personally I dont run. If i do its once a week or every two weeks just for the cardiovascular health benefits.


Yeah, I was thinking it was pretty insane to do all that condition to spend 15 mins in the ring tops.

So what do you guys view as a realistic training session?
Dont mistake my harshness for strength and neither mistake my kindness for weakness.

[humble]

Alan, Paul started off much lighter and gradually built his way up to his weight. He started training and running at this lighter weight and thus adapting as he went along. You cant take a naturally big fellow who hasnt trained and expect their bodies to adapt. Cardiovascularly and physiologically they may and it is certainly possible, but Im speaking more on a structural level, eg ligaments, tendons, other soft connective tissue and skeletally.

I think I remember you saying in an article that Paul is a regular advocate of weight training. I'd attribute that to more of his fitness than running. Like I said, aerobic and anaerobic fitness are two separate things. there is some cross over common ground but fighting fitness leans more to anaerobic threshold ability rather than aerobic ability. That is why a marathon run although aerobically a powerhouse cannot fight adequately. They are not trained to function at an anaerobic level which fighting is. All the explosive movements in fighting are a quick way to get into the lactic acid cycle. if someone isnt trained in that area, thats where they will fail.

Paul is a legend in his fitness because he has been doing it so long, does weights and has allowed his body to accomodate itself gradually whilst continually training. Had he just been a big lad without all that training, then adapting is much different and harder.

Dont mistake my harshness for strength and neither mistake my kindness for weakness.

[gvmuaythai]

I have trained in Thailand a couple of times, did my utmost to do everything the Thais did, and I weighed 90kgs. I run everyday, usually 10kms, every now and then I do a 5 if I feel lazy. But you must listen to your body, get some really good running shoes(no matter the cost)and knee supports to keep my joints warm and flexible while I run. It is more stressful on the body If you are heavier, but running is an integral part of fitness training and building nice strong legs and back.You can do everything the Thais do, but just not as quick for obvious reasons. Build up and you will get there, no worries, just listen to your body!!!
- Mat

[muaythaimayhem]

Staves I reckon it's acheivable actually. I'm not a fighter either, i'm 6'2" and 98 right now, 93-94 lightest in recent history. You just have to build it up over time, it seems daunting, but if you just increase workload every so slightly over a 6 month period for example, you would get there.
From previous experience with running, I would not recommend running morning and night, I ended up with very severe shin splints, even to the point where I thought my shinbone felt like breaking.
But apart from that it is manageable.

[Alan Wong]

quote:I think I remember you saying in an article that Paul is a regular advocate of weight training. I'd attribute that to more of his fitness than running. Like I said, aerobic and anaerobic fitness are two separate things. there is some cross over common ground but fighting fitness leans more to anaerobic threshold ability rather than aerobic ability. That is why a marathon run although aerobically a powerhouse cannot fight adequately. They are not trained to function at an anaerobic level which fighting is. All the explosive movements in fighting are a quick way to get into the lactic acid cycle. if someone isnt trained in that area, thats where they will fail.

Paul is a legend in his fitness because he has been doing it so long, does weights and has allowed his body to accomodate itself gradually whilst continually training. Had he just been a big lad without all that training, then adapting is much different and harder


Running develops your aerobic fitness and I don't think that can be disputed. Of course as a fighter one has to be trained in the anerobic area as well. Like you said fighting involves a lot of explosive actions. But I believe that without the aerobic capacity, you'll be gassed up after a couple of minutes. Therefore I would deduce that it is necessary to combine the 2 together. Have one and not the other does not work.

Yes Paul started of as a lighter fighter and he is use to the running. That is a great asset of his but as you have pointed out in your comment, one has to get use to the training regime. It takes time for the body to adjust. So a bigger guy can start of having a hard time adjusting to running but over time his body will adjust. Of course you don't go for a 10K run on your first attempt. Start off gradually and increase the distance as your body adjust. Its that simple.

Back to the concern of staves....overtraining is the worst abuse that you can dish out to your body. Most important is to listen to your body. if you are tired, rest. If its not enough, rest more. It doesn't do you any good if you are only doing 40%. So the key thing here is rest and let your body adjust until you can handle more.

[DazMon]

That 10km run at Lanna, to be done in 1 hour huh!?
Hmmmm...

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Oooooh Yeah!
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[muaythaimayhem]

check this interval training out, to get more stamina for longer distances, involves sprints and calisthenics with shorter normal runs. I'll be doing this shortly.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0851.htm

[dutts72]

Have to agree with Alan on this that you must ( baring injuries which prevent this) run to build aerobic capacity.

Though one thing I would not emulate is the way the Thais run which is toe striking first. Correct running methods along with the correct shoe for your foot is vital. Heal striking first and transferring into the toes will help minimize impact. Keep your stride pattern neither to short nor too long, keeping your shoulders back (feel like your chest is pushed fwd) plus importantly pushing your hips fwd as this will promote heal striking plus minimising bouncing.

Importantly after every run you must do your best to strecth areas such as your calves, Gluets, Hip flexors, drivers, hamstrings, lower lumber(back) etc ...

Dazmon you mentioned the 10km run in an hour...are you saying this is fast or slow? 10km in 1 hour is 6min kilometres or 10kmph which really is a slow to moderate speed. Just in comparison I myself run 10km reaguarly which takes me between 45-47mins or 50-51min on a slower day.

As Muaythaimayhem mentioned interval training is an awesome way to build strength, enurance and satmina(+ fat loss due to metabolic increase). This will also serve you well if your goal is to increase your overall disatnce running as the above mentioned areas will improve plus big benefits with interval training is the mental strengths you gain from this which will serve your needs whilst attempting longer distances

"Muay Thai Never Dies"
"Life in Every Breath"
Ome Mane Padme Hum

[Rob McIntyre]

I have to agree with Alan and Dutts here as well.

I can always tell the guys who are not running when preparing for a fight. They are the ones who don't perform as well on pads and sparring. They also get gassed much quicker during the fight.

I understand what you are saying about anearobic fitness needed in a fight, but my experience is, if the fighter doesn't run at least 30 to 45 minutes daily along with the workout, he will perform badly (as far as fitness goes) in the ring. Especially at novice level.

It happened at my last show, 3 out of 4 of my fighters all ran well, lasted the 3 rounds no problems. The one boy who hated to run and didn't, lasted 2 rounds (slowing in the 2nd) but died in the 3rd and could barely stand.

Just my observations.


Rob McIntyre - Gladstone
"in your training do not forget the spirit or the humility of a beginner"

[promoboss]

Personally I do agree that running has its benifits BUT as a big guy of 115+kgs I find for aerobic fitness using a eliptical x-trainer is really also avoiding any strike injury through the ankles kness & spine. A good 30 - 45 minutes on this puppy very second day with all the other training works a treat.
I also found that skipping works pretty good too.:)

It's Better to Burn Out than to Fade Away

[dutts72]

Promoboss

I agree for sure as I have used ellipitcal xtrainer heaps and heaps especially when I have run to much. Though the thing I find with these is once you have pushed them as far and hard as you can they dont become a challenge....this would be the only fault I find with them plus the fact very little stabilizing muscles are used.

I guess if you are trying to avoid impact whilst running the methods I mentioned previous post will undoubtley help plus running on softer surfaces such as grass and sand.

"Muay Thai Never Dies"
"Life in Every Breath"
Ome Mane Padme Hum

[Mungkorn]

Don't log on for a couple of days and look what you miss,
IMHO, the mind is a very powerful thing and can make you achieve anything you want, don't start by using your weight as a excuse, if your a bigger guy don't run on the roads run around a park or along the beach, set goals and achieve them slowly and you could be just as fit as a Thai's, I have trained body builders in the past 120 plus kg's, and have got them to fight finess, one of them who was not a natural, started at 125kg, 6 months training first fight 95kg.


"Throw your heart over the wall and your body will follow"
said by a world champion, Daniel Dawson

One World One MuayThai

[Mojoman]

Running is v.important for building that aerobic base IMO. You've got to cross it the anaerobic stuff on the pads and interval work but the base needs to be there first.

I'm 6'4 and 115kg right now. Running isn't my fav thing to do but if I don't I know I'd fade big time.

"If you change the way you look at things..what you look at changes"

[staves]

I'm not necessarily talking about just the running aspect of it, all the training those guys seem to do is mainly cardio, I realise there are other benefits to things such as pad, bag work, skipping it, but all of those work cardio extensively, and I am worried this will cause muscle atrophy or just prevent you developing as much fast twich muscle.

[dutts72]

Staves

You are correct in thinking you will burn muscle whilst training for long periods of time. Actually the body will begin to burn muscle after approx 20-25min of cardio exercise. This will depend on the intensity and ones capacity to deal with lactate.

"Muay Thai Never Dies"
"Life in Every Breath"
Ome Mane Padme Hum

[muaythaimayhem]

quote:
I'm not necessarily talking about just the running aspect of it, all the training those guys seem to do is mainly cardio, I realise there are other benefits to things such as pad, bag work, skipping it, but all of those work cardio extensively, and I am worried this will cause muscle atrophy or just prevent you developing as much fast twich muscle.




Aren't fast twitch muscle fibres hereditary? You either have fast twitch muscle fibres moreso compared to not? Hence you have more speed or not obviously (whether your big or not). I would doubt you can alter this ability by more than a couple percent ultimately due to a training regime. Not unless your on roids and lift extremely heavy weights and get huge, which would obviously impair movement.

[humble]

not only restricted to being hereditary, you can develop new fibres. Its called hyperplasia as opposed to the usual hypertrophy. Research suggests explosive style training coupled with normal hypertrophy type training is the way to increase or allow for hyperplasia.

You dont have to be on roids but you do have to train very hard and more so than hard, smartly.

Charles Poliquin, Ian King and the like have had tremendous success at improving athletes through these methods.


Dont mistake my harshness for strength and neither mistake my kindness for weakness.

[iceman]

Hi guys, sorry to jump in but can anyone tell me, if you can not run much, will rowing machines, exercycles do the same thing or give the same benefits? OSU! RTR

[dutts72]

Iceman

Sure than can but i dont think from my experience you can match the intensity of running/sprinting on x-trainers but rowers perhaps yes. If were say looking at maxing out heart rates i can hit 180+ (my max is 187) either sprinting over 4oometres or running flat stick over 4-5kms. To try to get this on a x-trainer of any sort i will simply lactate out before this is possible.

So in saying this yes for aerobic but for anerobic i would say no....though rowers would be my choice for anerobic work.

"Muay Thai Never Dies"
"Life in Every Breath"
Ome Mane Padme Hum

[iceman]

thanks dutts72, I will incorporate step sprinting in with the rowing. I am trying to find a personal trainer on the net who can develop a program for my boy. I am flying by the seat of my pants at the moment. He has his biggest challenge in june 2006, NZ Kyokushin Nationals, Russians and Aussies competing. Trying to find out what and when he should do stuff so he is in the best condition he can be for this event. Any help appreciated. OSU! RTR

ps it sounds like you are in awesome shape, do you have a P.T. or made your own program?