To check kicks or not?

[cliveg]

Firstly I'm not a kicker by choice, I prefer to pull heads off rather than kick them off. However realising my weaknesses in the kicking domain I've been doing a lot of leg work recently.
What I have found (thanks to Bas Rutten) is that there isn't always a great need to check every low roundhouse kick if your legs have been conditioned to absorb them. So for the last few weeks I've been doing a lot of conditioning drills mainly comprising of being hoofed repeatedly inside and outside of the thighs. The idea being to tense your legs and move them slightly towards the kick just before impact.
The results now speak for themselves, I can now absorb decent roundhouses on the inside and outside of the thighs without too much trouble at all, gone are the days of keeling over in a tearful heap. The advantage in sparring is that I'm no longer vulnerable standing on one leg checking a kick or ending up with sore shins.
So given you guys are serious kickers is this a standard approach?
From a self defence point of view or MMA point of view (which is my main interest) the ability to maintain better balance and absorb more punishment while maintaining forward drive and focus is priceless.
I'd appreciate any words of wisdom from you kickers and any other advice on alternative leg/shin conditioning
cheers
Clive

The Inner City Combat Club
Protective Self Offence
www.clive.com.au
"Do nothing that is of no use"
"Thou shalt never not train"

Edited by - cliveg on 14 Sep 2005 13:11:10

[elbow KO]

i think that by taking the leg kick you could put yourself at a disadvantage. Even so you are able to absorb the kick what the judges see is your lack of defence, therefore points would go to the kicker regardless of the effect. And that's the last thing you would want in a close fight, especially seeing that kicks score more than punches. If it is a situation of not wanting to bust up your shins checking than try moving the lead leg back, similar to steping back and then forward again. Alot of times you will find that the person kicking will be a momentarily off balance at the supposed contact point of the kick, and in turn you r counter may be alittle more productive. In my honest opinion, it doesn't matter how well conditioned your legs are, you will only be able to absorb so much and sooner or later that leg will be mince, especially as the rounds go on. Hope this helped.



Edited by - elbow ko on 14 Sep 2005 13:32:31

[cliveg]

Thanks for that Elbow, I practice more for NHB / Vale Tudo and hadn't given point scoring any consideration. What I have to consider is the possibility of being taken down while reacting to a fake low kick. Also the stance is very much lower than in kickboxing to allow transition to grappling so there is more weight on the forward foot and therefore less oppurtunity to quickly shin check. I guess also the kick ratios are a hell of a lot lower but I take your point about the leg becoming mince meat at the end of a Kickboxing match using only this method
thanks
Clive

The Inner City Combat Club
Protective Self Offence
www.clive.com.au
"Do nothing that is of no use"
"Thou shalt never not train"

[elbow KO]

If it is in the context of VALE TUDO that you had in mind than i would have no idea what would be the best option, have you tried practising catching kicks? Similar to the Muay Thai style of catching kicks. I could imagine you could work alot off that.

[cliveg]

Being firstly a grappler catching kicks is second nature however it's those low roundhouses just above knee level aimed at the inside/outside thigh which are inpractical to catch, hence the choice of checking or absorbing
cheers
Clive

The Inner City Combat Club
Protective Self Offence
www.clive.com.au
"Do nothing that is of no use"
"Thou shalt never not train"

[jjfto]

gday cliveg I believe my style may be similar to yours. I also feel more comfortable on the inside. As you well know conditioning and heart are the key to success. While getting hit or kicked is something you want to avoid inevitably it is going to happen. You are on the right track when you talk about shortening the distance between the point of impact and the blow. When opponents commit themselves and launches their kick attack they are stationary and also vulnerable to being knocked off balance while only having one leg planted. Now you are presented a perfect opportunity to get inside and work your magic without having to worry about stiff jabs. If you are willing to take a few to give a few which I am sure your are conditioning is paramount. As for conditioning techniques keep it simple! Find a solid object like a tree and attack it. You will also want to fight switch a lot to get that rear leg conditioned. A quality opponent will test your whole body searching for weakness.

[Voice]

with all due respect, you guys have gotta be kidding right? Stand there and absorb thigh kicks by leaning INTO the kick? ie increasing the speed of impact.
Right...I see.
Any decent leg kicker will take you down inside of 2 rounds using that tactic and likely dislocate your knee at some stage. I was watching Steve McKinnon kicking the crap out of Tzoros from front row just a few weeks ago and it nearly brought tears to my eyes seeing a lack of checking given that Tzoros was mainly a boxer. Steve crippled him in just a few rounds.

Not sure of your style but the idea in nearly all martial arts is to be stable but light on your feet so you can attack quickly but move out of danger also. And if you inevitably get hit, then minimise the damage, hence the leg check. A full blown power shot into the thigh can the turned against the kicker if the defender has strong shins or can shift his weight off the leg and return with his own shot.

Remember Bob Sapp with thighs the size of tree trunks getting chopped by Hoost? He lasted 1 round before falling.

Condition your thighs by all means, but always learn defence first and that means fast checking and shifting. Guys who stand there and absorb kicks are easy opponents and will suffer injury after injury.

Just my thoughts...my first years of martial arts were in Shotokan karate, where you basically stood there in a deep strong stance and absorbed the kitchen sink if it came your way. Not smart, and very painful...watch guys like JWP if you want to see how to minimise the impact of powerful leg kicks.

-----------------------------
A man's gotta know his limitations...

Edited by - Voice on 14 Sep 2005 16:13:58

Edited by - Voice on 14 Sep 2005 16:15:03

[shaunw]

in my opinion better to check than to take it. nothing better than fighting someone that wont check!!

Max Power, he's the man who's name you'd love to touch. But you mustn't touch! His name sounds good in your ear, but when you say it you mustn't fear! Cause his name can be said by anyone

[Kiwi Sting]

Again I have to agree with the Voice.

My old head has taken a few good shots but I aint gonna lean my jaw into no kick.

cliveg, mate, a good check can end a fight and sometimes a fighter. It is an offensive, defencive weapon and it hurts like hell when you kick a checked leg. Having the conditioning to take the shots is good but some of the guys have pointed out that you are helping the other guy score points and after a while your well conditioned thighs may be prematurely fatiuged and not some thing you should take by chance. That conditioning should be a backup and backup only.

[jjfto]

Gday voice how are you? I was watching you on fox last night. Good show.
I agree, any decent leg kicker will take you down in no time. Take Slowinski for example. You are going to get chopped down weather you are checking or not.
The point I am trying to get across to cliveg is to get in with minimal damage so that he may use his strengths to his advantage. Rather than hanging around checking all night and loosing anyway. The advice was specific designed for cliveg.

[jjfto]

"you guys have gotta be kidding right? Stand there and absorb thigh kicks by leaning INTO the kick? ie increasing the speed of impact."

Moving your leg closer to the attacking leg is EXACTLY what a check is.

[Voice]

jjfto,
nah mate the 'Voice' you saw last night was my namesake, a rather cuddly and excitable Michael Schiavello...in stark contrast to myself.

Sorry mate, don't want to start an argument here but closing the distance may be right for a loopy, long-reaching guy but might be exactly the wrong tactic to a powerhouse like Zambo who will jab and rip/hook you as soon as you come into range. Can't generalise tactics.

All I know is that standing there taking shots on the thigh is not smart fighting, and i think that was the point of the reply to the first post.

-----------------------------
A man's gotta know his limitations...

[drgndrew]

G'day guys.
Just curious would you use different tactics in the street compared to the ring. I notice that a lot of the advice given is specific to ring fighting, which is fair enough kickboxing is a ring sport afterall.

What about the "Pavement Arena" (c/o GT) where no one is counting points and there is only one round that lasts 3-30 seconds not 3 minutes. Would you still give the same advice.

For the record I'm a checker but i prefer to check the preperation rather then the execution of the kick. If that makes sence.

With Honour in Bushido,
Drew

[jjfto]

Ahhh I sorry about that, my mistake. Nothing wrong with a good argument. Everyone gets their thoughts and feelings out and people have a chance to learn a thing or two. I have an open mind and I don’t mind being proven wrong. Life is a learning experience after all.
The advice given by me was specifically designed for cliveg. At the end of the day he has to work to his strengths and get inside. He can’t rip peoples heads off from the outside can he. Ideally it would be great for him to be flexible.
If he hangs around checking and looses because he adjusted his style to suite his opponent he won’t feel good about the fight. Now if he jumps in and works to his strength and still looses there is no shame in that knowing that he gave it HIS best.
Just some of my thoughts. Jump in and rip their head off mate ;)

drgndrew a street fight is something you want to avoid at all costs. To many variables to cope with. Even if you have to take a hit or two and look like a ***** it’s better than getting stabbed or something from someone you don’t see. You only get one life after all.

[imported_n/a]

Voice,

You are missing Clive's point. He is referring to MMA practice and the strategy of wearing 1 whilst moving in fast for the takedown. i repeat - wearing 1! For a KB match it would be insane - for MMA it does work - Gracie's do it all the time. Bas Rutten also does it in order to get hip control / better position for throwing.

[drgndrew]

jjfto,

Good answer mate.

With Honour in Bushido,
Drew

[Voice]

yeah fair point PP...you have made me re-read all the posts now!<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

Thought he was talking general self-defence or whatever, but yeah, MMA, I guess the 'aborb and charge' technique is the way to go if you are a strong inside fighter, though you still often see the smaller MMA fighters doing plenty of kickboxing in opening moments before the groundwork.

Not being a huge fan nor exponent of MMA, I will defer further comment to those with more interest and knowledge.

-----------------------------
A man's gotta know his limitations...

[Seth_2]

wen u think about it, culdnt u take the time u wuld to condition ur thighs, to condition ur shins instead..? then u wuld not lose a point or hurt urself.

Moving and catching were also good alternatives brought up. once u can do all three of them effectivly u are fully prepared for kicks...nothin better than catching sum1's leg and puttin em on their arse coz u can <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

"One World One Muaythai"

[cliveg]

Great responses guys and thanks Pira for that final clarification. Either way the responses were all enlightening. Pira is spot on, its a case of being able to wear one or two shots that previously would have had me thinking twice about moving in towards a kickboxer. I guess the best of all worlds applies here by conditioning the shins, I think it's that painful process I might be subconsiously avoiding but I'll be getting to work on that next by throwing away the shin guards
thanks
Clive

The Inner City Combat Club
Protective Self Offence
www.clive.com.au
"Do nothing that is of no use"
"Thou shalt never not train"

[Jimbo]

probably wouldn't reccomend kicking trees like ol matey suggested though i think you'll find a few decent sessions on the heavy bag every week would do the trick<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

jimbo

[Seth_2]

yeh...we always get new people that come to our gym ask how to toughen their shins coz they buise when they sparr....and every time we tell them to kick the bags more and it will gradually happen.

"One World One Muaythai"

[humble]

i still dont think that taking them on the thighs is smart, mma or muay thai or kick boxing or general fighting.

When you come up against someone that can time and kick like a mule and they chop you one on your thigh, I guarantee, that using your hips and legs in the fullguard or half guard in mma is going to be very hard. having the strength to charge in with a damaged thigh is another thing. Ill take you back a few years to a classic example of maurice smith vs mark coleman in ufc. Maurice chopped mark coleman down like a tree. Mark has excellent wrestling, charge and takedown skills yet they did nothing when his legs were taken from out under him. He lost that fight because of it. Kevin randleman sought to avenge his trainers loss and went up against maurice. Kevin simply was the better physical specimen and fighter and therefore won. He however started the fight explosively and anyone that has seen randleman fight knows he has bucketloads of fitness and energy. Anyway, after the fight he wasnt that same bucket of energy and he was bragging about having conditioned thighs that helped him in the fight. Fact is, the few kicks maurice got in on him before kevins sheer explosiveness took the fight to the mat, buckled him. Another example is pedro izzo or hizzo( cant remember the spelling). he often chopped his oponents down in mma with leg kicks.

Saw a clip the other day of an mma fight where a guy throws (a poor techniqued) full powered leg kick and the other guy checks it. The simple check snapped his whole tibia and fibia in half and it bent backwards as he landed down on it at an angle you'd need a protractor to work out. everyone has seen the old classic of the big white dude vs the black dude.

Even if you were to take a kick on your thighs as a sacrifice to allow you in on another move, it would be done whilst your light on your feet and you would go with the kick, not against it. going against it will cork the **** out of it and two or three of those on the same spot and i guarantee a really messed up thigh that will stuff your whole fight game. Thigh kicks accumulate. too many fights have occured to even hypothesise otherwise where fighters have simply been put away with leg kicks alone. I vividly remember gurkan ozkan years ago refusing to come out of his corner because of buckled thighs in a fight. i remember him wincing, bending over in agony everytime the guy even fainted a kick and not being able to execute anything. If anyone knows gurkan, you'd know he'd rather die than give up a fight as he is truly one of the gutsiest guys we have in the sport. nonetheless, leg kicks stopped him easy.

its just not smart. rather, keep moving at angles and make it hard for your opponent to even attempt a kick to your legs. stay light on your feet so you can check. even when you check your shin isnt meant to be rigidly pushing out against the kick. youll hurt yourself that way.

checking is an art in itself that requires timing, feel, speed and proper technique and even footwork. obviously the stance determines the ability to check as well. if your a heavy footed fighter who plants thier weight obviously then your going to get your fair share of thigh kicks and make your checking much harder.

i really think all martial arts can benefit from muay thai when it comes to this regard.

If the rulers knew how much peace a poor man had, they would fight them with swords to obtain it. - Imam Al Haddad

[Jimbo]

Pedro Rizzo but pronounced Hizzo, brazilians pronounce all R's as H's, cracks me up when you look at all the gracies, R(H}oyce, Rickson, Renzo, Royler, Rodrigo, Ralph etc... hehe

jimbo

[Cheen Machine]

To answer your question cliveg. I must agree with elbow ko. if you don't want to check kicks because you bust your shins try a push kick to the chest or the attacking leg. so time your kick and hit him in the leg he is kicking with time this properly and you'll bust his hip and wont be able to fight.
Cheen Machine

You can talk all ya want but talk is cheap.

[dutts72]

I agree with all the different points of view given here but as Pira pira mentioned we are talking about MMA rules and rarely have I seen dangerous leg kickers under these rules. Obviously there are a few exceptions such as Mo Smith and Cro Cop who came from striking backgrounds.

Every time I watch Pride or UFC etc I see guys shooting for the takedown whilst absorbing a relativley weak low kick. There are so many differences in the range of MMA that differs from our sport that we need to consider. So in this case I tend to agree with clivegs training methods to absorb punishment to the legs. As I said it is unlikely he is going to face a dangerous and skilled leg kicker under MMA rules as I truley havent seen to many.

You rarely see guys setting up with hands then throwing full blown low kicks or even low kicks from range. Reason is the range and the danger of been taken to the ground and thus being on the bottom position.

This said ideally learn the art of checking as it may be needed if you do run across a skilled and powerful leg kicker.

"Muay Thai Never Dies"
"Life in Every Breath"
Ome Mane Padme Hum

[iceman]

Sorry guys just found it. If there is anything else to add I would be grateful OSU! RTR

[Seth_2]

conditioning your thighs isnt actually a bad idea, but taking them on the thigh isnt.. you wuld always try 2 check but if your thighs were conditiond you wuld hav that security knowing you culd take a few kicks if you had 2

"One World One Muaythai"

[shenfwu]

Hey Guys, I thought id just add my two bob to this. I think (from a mma or nhb point of view) in the inital stage when your measuring distance/range etc legs checks would be the more practical, but once you start to move forwards for take downs or what not then wearing it would have to be somehting you would have to look at, cos you cant really check a leg kick when your going in for a double leg take down on somehtig like that.

From a kickboxing point of view in the ring, well unless u have supa fitness combined with supa speed and foot work, u cld try jumping out of the way of every leg kick, otherwise if your like me, its better to check then take one on the thigh, unless u have a good opportunity to let a big right rip in exchange for copin a kick.

Shen

[MadMatt]

Kyokushin fighters mainly use the technique described by Clive of wearing the kick whilst stepping forward and tensing the muscles, in order to launch an immediate counter attack. With good conditioning, it does work but obviously for only a limited amount of time.
I suppose for the street it could be said that you would have enough adrenaline running through you that you could wear a low leg kick whilst moving forward to attack, even if your leg was damaged by the kick.
I was told recently that kicks are useless for the street as they leave you too exposed but I reckon it depends on how much room you've got and how good of a kicker you are!

"Let's get it on!!!"

[Jono]

I think its a natural reaction to check a kick on the street. If the person your fighting has no fighting background a simple well placed check could drop them.

[Rising Promotions]

I fight MMA and Muay Thai,

unless your shins are permanently damaged you should check. It hurts much less than taking it.

roy

[muaythaimayhem]

I know this is an old topic and sorry for resurecting it, but what about the Ben Edwards v. Sting fight on the gold coast recently, I cvouldn't believe Ben didn't check the leg kicks, just went for the big KO punches willy nilly. Would have thought he had the experience now to diffuse that sort of thing?

[Bushi]

If his shins weren't conditioned, he probably chose to wear them and figured he might last longer..

Slowinski's shins are as tough as, so shin on shin might have worried Ben !!

Just a thought

Bushi

"Yours in Bushido"

[shaunw]

what bout mark humt vs jlb. **** he to some kicks.

Max Power, he's the man who's name you'd love to touch. But you mustn't touch! His name sounds good in your ear, but when you say it you mustn't fear! Cause his name can be said by anyone

[shaunw]

yeah ben didnt even try to check once, i would have tried atleast once to check, or atleast tried to kick to keep him away. would have hated to be him the next day!!!

Max Power, he's the man who's name you'd love to touch. But you mustn't touch! His name sounds good in your ear, but when you say it you mustn't fear! Cause his name can be said by anyone

[Seth_2]

hmmm i doubt his thighs were conditioned anyway, so why not check?

"One World One Muaythai"

[Mungkorn]

In MT if you do not check you show weakness to your opponent, and he wil chop you down like a tree.....IMO......

One World One MuayThai

[promoboss]

As far as this post goes in my opinion as a mt fighter/trainer the answer is simple:
If you like to walk tall learn to check or enjoy the fall.

It's Better to Burn Out than to Fade Away

[Mungkorn]

Russ, that would be a good thread, everyone will be posting on that one.......<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

quote: "why would you want to kick chicks?"
A. Because she kicked me........<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

One World One MuayThai

[DazMon]

quote: If you like to walk tall learn to check or enjoy the fall.
And that one quote, pretty much closes this thread!

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Oooooh Yeah!
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[Bushi]

Anyone ever hear the old Rodney Rude tapes...

2 chicks fighting....someone says kick her *^&t in, and Rodney yells out, Yeah kick it in here....PRICELESS..<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

Bushi

"Yours in Bushido"

[Mungkorn]

Rodney Rude is a classic seen him live a few times........

One World One MuayThai