Whadda you Reckon

[Adam Houlahan]

This oughta start some ****e.

I just watched Stan 'The Man' in the the 93 K1, and then watch 'Slammin' Sam Greco in the 94 K1. Now I'd like some 'opinions' as to why Stan gets such a better wrap than Sam. To me, Sam put up a far better representation for our Country, finishing with a points decision. However I feel as if Stan has been better represented by Australia's media. Is this due to fight ability or media ability. Lets have a forum.

Adam Houlahan

(Adam Houlahan 'Esquire', after recently being educated in Forum ettiquette)

[paul c]

I'm guessing it's because Stan was the first to reach such heights in Australia.
I also reckon that the Stan package is more acceptable to main stream media. The name is pretty catchy 'Stan The Man', a lot of people will remember it a lot easier than Sam Creco etc.

I don't think I've ever seen Sam Creco on main stream free to air ever.
I also think Stan's physique doesn't look as thuggish as Sam. Sam just looks like a raw fighter to me, same as Ozkan, where as Stan's physique doesn't look as extreme as Sam's I reckon. Especially in Stan's earlier late eighties days when he first would have been introduced to the media as a world class athlete.

I don't know, this is all just speculation off course.

[Adam Houlahan]

Like Ozkan, They're still appealing attributes. ( raw fighter, extreme physique)

[supermario]

Good question Adam. I think it could also be that back in those days, fighting with knees was still obscure, and seemed awkward to the public, like MMA still does now to a certain extent. I think Stan could've beaten anybody under kickboxing rules in his heyday, and that includes Peter Aerts, Ernesto Hoost and Sam Greco; whomever. However, I often wonder what heights Sam Greco would've reached in the kickboxing world had he begun training under Muay Thai instead of Kyokushin Kai. I think Muay Thai would've allowed Sam to showcase his skills at his vicious best and that he would've been seen as Muay Thai's Stan the Man. He probably would've cleaned up on at the K-1 GP every year, but still would not have been as revered as Stan because Muay Thai was not as accepted back then as it is now. Not that it is now, but it's much improved. Remember when Aerts and Greco fought for the first time?? inexperience cost Greco the match. in fact the knees did him in if I recall, but he still had the distance. Anyways, I'm rambling, but that's something I'll always wonder: What if Sam Greco had taken up Muay Thai at a young age instead of Kyokushin Kai???? Wow.

[paul c]

Adam,

I agree with you. Most of us fight fans would agree that viciousness in the ring is very appealing to us. It's great to watch.

Though, I wonder if it's the same to a general television audience. I've said many times here that I consider Stan to be the Muhamed Ali of Kickboxing. I think a television audience would appreciate that more than a Mike Tyson of Kickboxing type character. Not that Sam is that, but he was super aggressive to watch in the ring. Also, I think that super mario is correct about the knees as well. I can remember when I first heard about kickboxing in the late 80's without yet seeing it. I immediately wondered to myself if this was truly possible that such a sport really exists in western society, where they genuinely allow full power kicks to the head. I mean I wasn't sure if it might be just entertainment or as fake as wrestling.
So to a general audience that likes sport, I think that kickboxing is perhaps only just tolerable. But when meeting or being introduced to Stan through television at that time, I think his charisma made a lot of people want to check this sport out. Here was obviously an intelligent bloke, competing in the most violent sport that I had heard of up till then. It certainly raised my curiosity enough to want to check it out.

I'm sure I've told you guys before that I first both heard about the sport of Kickboxing and the name 'Stan The Man' in the same sentence. I think to many of us that Stan was Australian kickboxing at that time, or at least to many of us suburban Australians that didn't get to hang out at fight gyms.

[Adam Houlahan]

Good replies fella's. But the 'Muhammed Ali' of Kickboxing?, I couldn't go that far.
One of the fights I'm reffering to with 'STM' might of well have been kickboxing. The first High kick on the received on the gloves knocked him down for a count, and the second high kick, a very well connecting kick, finished the fight. Not much of a show put up from 'STM' and for all it contained the fight might as well have been Kickboxing with out knees.
I am of the opinion that the general public are more facinated by the raw and awkward, almost 'psycho' fights. I reckon some of the most technically proficient fights I've seen have missed out on public respect because of the lack of animalism. In a nut shell I reckon, fighters and trainers have more respect for skill and art in our sport, however the public love seeing rough, sometimes messy stouching.
Quote:
'I think his charisma made a lot of people want to check this sport out.'

I think your right. And I think this may be my answer, that his charisma is responsible for his stature, despite his ability, when compared to Sam Greco

Adam Houlahan

[bosna001]

Adam you must be talking about Stans fight with Bernardo wher he got knocked out with a headkick i think that is the only fight that Bernardo didnt win with punches.i myself think that Greco was better as well but didnt get enough exposure I mean stan lost to Satake twice Greco preety much retired satake Stan lost to vander merwe Greco beta him stan lost to bernardo greco beat him greco went distance twice with andy hug stan got knocked out by him.To make story shorte stan was a legend as a kickboxer but never quite cut it as a K-1 fighter in my opininon he should have retired after he won his muay title in Thailand.

[paul c]

I really can't comment on who had more skill. Also, I've only seen about half a dozen Sam Creco fights, I'm not a fighter so won't even attempt to argue skill with you guys.

I do however have about 20 odd Stan fights. To me they are both such very different fighters to watch. I found a prime Stan more fluid in his movement and combos than what I reckon Sam was. I don't think this necessarily means one person is better than another in my eyes at least. Because I like watching both styles of fighting. Sam had all of Stan's weapons, and probably thrown with more power, but I honestly found Stan's fights more exciting to watch.

[lennox]

sam dosnt come close to stan at their best!
stan is an actor, great communicator and very inteligent. sam on the other hand has an IQ of 5! the media love stan! I have seen stan in the herald sun about 5 or 6 times after his retirement. go figure!

[lennox]

oh, i forgot to mention...stan beat sam at the crowning as well! anyone who can judge a fight properly would agree! that goes for sam himself!

[admin]

Lennox,

Sam has an IQ of 5???

Do you KNOW Sam Greco or are you just one of these people who judges a book by its cover?

Sam is one of if not the most eloquent Australian kickboxer there has ever been, that's one of the reasons we love to have him as a guest commentator on many of the shows. He is also one of the most intelligent fighters you will meet. Above all he is in my opinion the friendliest man in the sport.

Actor? Sam has chosen his acting roles very carefully... he started off in Under the Gun with Richard Norton (small budget film, tacky script, awesome fight scenes) just to get used to being in a film... then of course he did Scooby Doo Movie - US$80 million budget and a huge box office gross. He also had a small part in Pizza - an Aussie box office success. Seems some very SMART choices in my opinion.

As for Stan vs Sam it's an old argument... we never got to see them both at their peaks except at The Crowning at this was nothing but a streetfight... if you're talking K-1 then Greco has far more accomplishments than Stan who didn't fare well at all in K-1... Sam is still revered as a demi-god of K-1 in Japan. Last year at the GP at the Tokyo Dome they played a tribute video featuring five or six GREATS of K-1... Greco was one of those and the crowd went nuts when his 'bad boys' music started playing.

Stan was of course the pioneer, a great multi world champion, a great ambassador for the sport and beat the world's best in kickboxing during his peak.

Give credit where it is due... both men deserve HEAPS of it... but please do not say Sam Greco is a dumb ass as he is FAR FAR from it.

Michael Schiavello

[lennox]

if sam is such a nice guy, he would have signed my little cousins t-shirt at a show held 3 or 4 years ago, instead he brushed us off, like he was the biggest hot shot. I lost respect for him that day! then someone on here posts this and that saying how he didnt get enough exposure in the media! that would be easy to understand if you were in my shoes. the guy is full of it! he isnt humble for a start and he is no role model. this is what I EXPERIENCED! sure he was a good fighter and he looked the part but when comparing him to stan he dosnt come close, that goes for in and out of the ring! and those 2 films you mentioned...he dosnt even say one line!!!!! if he knew how to communicate better he might of had some media backing!

[Adam Houlahan]

hey lennox,

your last reply reminds me(with reference to your little cousin), of that eminem song 'Stan'.
Please don't drive your car off a bridge.
Good points Schiavello, ta

Adam Houlahan

[Servant1]

I think we are missing the point hear! Who was the 5 times world champion!!!!

[bosna001]

I dont know about your little cousin story but i remember seeing sam in syney when he was in corner for kim osbourne at one of the ring karate tournaments there and he was talking to people taking photos and stuff i myself had a photo taken with him and got autograph and this is while he was preparing one of his fighters backstage and i seriously dont see the reason for calling him dumb common mate thats a bit low.

[sooty]

I have been fortunate to know,train & fight with Sam as a part of the same National Kyokushin Knockdown Team in NZ, Japan and Singapore.

In this time Sam has shown that he is a professional in all matters be it training, feeback, hints & tips etc. I for one just like Mike S, will put my hand straight up and say yep sammy is a mate of mine and his friendship is important to me as is his to alot of others.

Stan & Sam even though they fought at the same time, were worlds apart with regards to timing. Stan had already contribited to assisting in blazing his own trail in Australian / World Kickboxing scene and i am sure that even sam would agree that Stan had already made his mark "before" Sam started to get attention. remember Sams reputation was evident from his Kyokushin background befor he even put on a pair of gloves.

I think the topic or discussion generally reflects the different personalities and charactors of these two warriors. Love em or hate em, they are ours and i am sure that their are plenty of other countries that would love to claim either of them as theirs!

Cheers
Mark [aka sooty ]

[Lucy Tui]

:)I must say when I first seen Sam Greco when he had his first kickboxing Title Sth pacific heavyweight against Simon Swete he looked in great shape knocked him out in the first round...
The first time I had a conversation with Sam I walked away thinking what a great person, he was lovely very much a gentleman in the sport....I was over in Japan when he fought in the K1 when he got into the semi finals 1998,great abassador for the sport, great person....
All the best Sam Greco....
Regards
Lucy Tui

[Mark 1]

I'm don't want to get involved in a who's better debate, but i did want to agree with Paul C's comment about Stan being a "Muhammad Ali" type fighter.

I dont know if anyone has been watching the 'Ali greatest of all time' series on ESPN, but the other night after watching that, i watched a tape of Stan fighting Charlie Archer, and the first thing that struck me was what i percieved to be a similarity to Ali in the way the Stan moved, very fluid, quick with his head, and moving sideways aand at angles. I remarked at the time to my brother that it was reminescent of how i would imagine Ali would have fought if he were a kickboxer.
so i see Pauls point. Not in terms of greatness, but in terms of style.

[lennox]

Lucy, i am saying you canot compare the two. BIG DIFFERENCE! One made it with the aussie media and the other did not! You answer me WHY? For me its like ali compared to leon spinks(the toothless one).

[paul c]

Hey guys,

what year do you reckon Stan peaked at?

Was it around the time of the Alexio fight?

[sooty]

Hey Mark1..
I have been watching the Ali special on ESPN and i forgot how tough Ali was.
The fight with Frazier ( 1 ) was a ripper, but the Rumble in the Jungle with Big George Foreman showed how much spirit Ali had ( has ).

Ali seem to be able to take a HUGE amount of punishment from both of these guys and still keep talking in their ear reminding them they he was still their and not going anywhere.
Excellent fights from the past. better than most Heavyweights fights we see today!

cheers
Mark [ aka sooty ]

[Mark 1]

definitly, i was just laughing in amazement at the way Ali kept talking to him, especially after taking punches like that from someone who was regarded as maybe the hardest puncher in the sport at the time.
what got me the most though was Ali's strategy, he psyched out Foreman and everybody else, made them believe one thing and did another.and then had the guts and determintaion and endurance to follow thru on it.