Kings Cup fighter notification ?

[paul c]

Guys, I read on Ax I think, that we only get to find out a couple of weeks prior to the event which fighters will be competing. I'm presuming the poster meant officially. I hope he doesn't mean that, that is when the promoter decides?

Is this correct?


Also, does an Australian or Kiwi usually make it onto the card?

[dutts72]

Hi Paul

Do you mean the Kings Cup, not birthday. I have competed in the Kings Cup it is im pretty sure a WMC/IFMA Run avent these days as then. Oh I have the Certificate ib front, yer WMC. Anyhow the team as far as I no is made of mostly top fighters from QLD and WA who travel alot to Thailnd to train/fight. So on the guys side you have guys like Finlayson, Soren maybe Shannon Forrester, maybe Bruce Macfie. Maybe be Blair Hinds and then defiantely Women such as Amy Birch, Julie Livett. These guys are going over, staying training having a fight, coming home earn some $$ and head back. From my experience as I was in 1996,97 World AM Champs in Bkk and the 98 Kings Cup in Samut Prakan, this is how they guys get to go and FAIR enough... good on them!! Giving a crack OS is they Warriors Life!

PEACE

AVD72

[paul c]

I'm sorry Dutts I really am ignorant to so much in Muay Thai, and that is why I am making the effort to go over to Thailand and hopefully it will inspire me to learn more and follow more closely.

I was actually meaning the event that is held on the Kings birthday December 5th I believe. In my ignorance, I thought that they were one and the same.

I only get to fights in Melbourne. But we never get huge Star Muay Thai fights like you guys would get in Queensland, Perth, South Aus. I think it will be a great opportunity of me seeing some of the worlds best fighters by going over there.





Edited by - paul c on 12 Jul 2003 23:49:25

[dutts72]

Hi Paul

No worries, If you do go over let me no when as I maybe there training and working, can show you some good gyms etc. The Kings B'day which luckily I think I will be there around the same time is a Songchai Promotion held on 5th December the King Bumhudiol( I hope I spelt that right)Birthday a great Thai Celebration as they Love there Kings with great Passion as he is no puppet figure King like we have in the West. Anyhow normally on the Thai Fighters side they pick the Best and most Famous as it is huge prestige for these guys. I saw Sakmongkol Defeat Perry Ubeda( Holland) with a dislocated shoulder for most of the fight and he tko'd Ubeda by braking his arm with kicks! On the Western Side of things Fighters who have made a name for themselves already in Thailand or show huge promise in Europe(mostly) get the invitations. Japan also normally has a Fighter in there, and us Aussie get the great JWP not onve but 3 times now and I glad to say I have seen all three. Though only from my TV screen whilst living there. You have to see to believe whats going on there, over 100,000 people for Muay Thai, Concerts and Carnivals... WOW. Good luck, let me no if I can get some more info for you.

PEACE

AVD72

[lamb_chops]

dutts when is the kings cup,and whats the diffrence between the birthday and the cup? I acually have a video of the 99 kings cup when ryan simpson fought and got ripped off do you remember that?? he is one asume fighter ryan Simpson. His hand and feet combinations are just unreal it shows that thais can get chopped up and stopped on leg kicks.He is one fighter that just works alot on constant leg kicks and doesent grapple as much,and has stopped alot of his thai opponents on leg kicks i have to agree it is the ultimate weapon the dutch hand and feet combonations followed by leg kicks.i think the only way to beat the thais are not to play there game but to use angles hands and feet,and smart grappling.do you know when ryan is fighting next the last i heared of him was when i was in thailand and his trainner said he won in the thrid round earlier this year. any info??

[dutts72]

Hi lamb Chops

The fight in 1999 im sure your are thinking about was the Kings Birthday on December 5. Ryan Sipson did fight that night as I watched it from Bangkok on TV and I own a Copy on Video. He most certainly did not get ripped off, remeber its Real Muay Thai. Sure he puts hands and legs togeather beautifully and powerfully but that when fighting a Thai is his downfall. If you watch the fight closely, you will see an array of techniques used with great affeciency. I think the Thai was the great Yodchai Sityotong? In this array of technique including all 8 weapons, ring control weather it be from the ropes or from the middle of the ring. The Thai domianted how the fight was taking place, it was in his hands as Simpsons only hope of winning was from a great Punch or Lucky Shot. What you have to understand that Muay Thai is not a game of putting togeather 1,2 hook and low kick over and over, but strangely enough it is a kin to Chess. A Thai Fighter can alone win a fight by simply Teep kicking(push kick) his opponent throughout the whole fight and not getting hit. During the 1996 World Amatuer Champs I fought the English Middlweight Champ who was tall and push kicked me out of the fight. Afterwards being dejected, Yodtong Sennan the Muay Thai Trainer of the Century came up to me and told me the Teep Kick is One if not the most vital Muay Thai technique of all!! I was not astounded as I had just been proven that in my fight but coming from this Man a living legend. If you have ever witnessed Samart Payakarun from Sityodtong you would no what I mean, actually it is a special technique they are famous for.
Getting back to that fight, If I can get my copy back from my mates I will dub it for you and send to you. The great thing is you can listen to Sifu Robert Mcguiness who Runs ISS in Thailand were Dejpetak ISS comes from. He explains beautifully about how the Dutch fighters are very defecient when competitng against the best of the Thais and how the scoring system works and were Europeans always go wrong. I could explain but it will take ages, but keep in mind that Thai Judges look to see who is the Dominate, the Master of the ring. This includes all 8 weapons, especially the clinch/grapple during the 4th round, as well the 5th round can alot of the time be very vital. They are looking at style, technique, power and effeciency, stamina, heart, defense very importantly, aggression or the non passive opposite of aggression? Aggression in defence. Also lastly during the 1st round and a little of the 2nd round unless a knockdown has occured resulting in an 8 count they often take a little knap and score the rounds even as these are not seen as very important.

PEACE

AVD72

[Glenn]

Kings Cup is an amateur tournament, Kings Birthday is a Songchai show.
If you can get a copy of the 2000 show, they had Somluck fight. Even though he was mismatched and won easily, just to watch this guy fight was great. He's a TV star in Thailand now!

DUTTS, are you in Australia most of the time? do you have many Muay Thai shows on video?

[lamb_chops]

well fair enough dutts i see you really know your muay thai which is great!!.So really there is the dutch muay thai style and the thai original muay thai style? the dutch focus really on heaps of drill work and hand and feet combinations and find the most devisating weapon is the leg kick if used effecianltly,asi have studied so much on the ducth style and have watched heaps of videos specially my rob kaman set of tapes vol 1-8 which i find really good,i find in my fights that hands and feet win the fight. really noone checks 100% specially if hands and feet are produced i mean look at ernesto hoost why does he win? it is because racks up points or stops people with leg kicks. The fighters which use or used hands and feet in there time are rob kaman,ernesto hoost,and ryan simpson well there are proberlly more but thats the most famouos,but look at them all they are champoins and they have beaten the best thais with there formula.i mean ive seen ryan and ernesto stop heaps of fighters with leg kicks and it only takes a constant amount and there legs will just buckle,it bloddy works for me SOOO GOOD!!! but maybe if you dont stop them on leg kicks in muay thai then the fight is scored in a diffrent way, but in plain kickboxing you can't beat it which is a diffrent sport all together.Thai trainng is good but i still think they need to use that kick shild more often and maybe do some good drill work with some nice sharp crisp hands and finish off with a great leg kick aswell as working the body kick,grappling and using the teep i think is a perfect all round fighter wich has all those things in his wepons. That is just my opinion and i think i have studied enough and worked out a good reciepe for sucsuss,you need abit of everything not just a good body kick or a good knee,to become the best.Also dutts could you explain alittle bit briefly about what the ducth say about how they get beaten and wot they need to do,about fighting the best thais at there own game?

cheers jason

[paul c]

Dutts,

I'm pretty certain I'll be there in time for the Dec 5th Songchai event. I'm just in the process of organizing my passport now.

Dutts if you're over there at the same time, I'd love to catch up. I believe we can get SMS messages over there on our mobiles. My mobile number is 0421 797 539.

As well as hoping to just shoot the sporting event..........just regular fight images, I was hoping to be able to do some photo documentary stuff of perhaps what it might be like there for young western men in the training camps. I'm sure it's no big deal to you guys who have done it, but to a regular suburban Aussie I think it must look like such a bizzar thing to do. You know, living in such spartan quarters and punishing your bodies for weeks on end, and for a sport with little financial reward. So, while there I was hoping to maybe tap into whatever it is that makes you guys put yourselves through that.

I hope that doesn't sound judgmental, it's just so far from what most other people would be doing over there. Like drinking heaps of booze and laying on the beaches.

[dutts72]

Hey Lamb Chops, dude I am a Dutch stylist in my Training Methods and my students for about 4 years now. I love it as in Western Muay Thai its whats work so well. Sharp Boxing Skills setting up craking Leg kicks on both legs, sweeping across both legs with the shin ala Ernesto Hoost, Rob Kaman, Ramon Dekker, Michael Lieuwfat, Peter Aerts, Petr Smit, Ubeda, Kiasourri, Simpson, Ballentine, Diafat, Bille & Nikema( FRANCE) etc & co. Ive watched all the guys when I was young having wars with Out of Shape, Over the Hill Thais when the Thais were in Holland. But when the Dutch came to Bangkok wow... Nampon, Changpuek,Krongsak ,Padihkrlek, Coban, Saidykhan, Cherry, Waigjainoi, Olie,Therdikiet, Orono, Saigtennoi, Somluck, Nengtrakan, Yodsanan, Yodchai etc & Co. The only time I have ever seen since 1988 a Top Dutch fighter defeat for real was when Dekker rematched Coban after Coban had Ko'd Dekker in Paris. Well Dekker came absolutely smoking and hit Coban flush about 12 twimes in about 30 seconds and stopped him Cold. Petr Smit once bet Changpuek at Lumpinee in an absolute war, Smit was stamping on Changpueks feet, it was insane. Eventually Smit ko'd Changpuek but it wasnt a pretty thing. More often than no there is often a 5kg+ weight advantage to the European fighters and being a fighter I no that its basically a weight class! I once saw Mourad Sari win the Lumpinee Title I think 63kgs, I was spweing I had wasted my time going to watch that as it turned out the Thai wasnt even ranked in the top Ten at the stadium. Later King Mourad went down to Samui for sum fun, so the Thais offered him a fight at the Chaweng Stadium as the raining Lumpinnee champ. So they get a beach boy who happens to be a just recently retired as a Lumpinee champ trains him up and he stopped Mourad in 3 rounds. Living in Thailand and understanding Thai pride it was fairly funny as you may imagine?

Anyhow Lambchops getting back to the point, Yes Dutch method all the way for Australia, as long as the grapple, teep and wall of defence is installed. You have to let yourself evolve from what you have learnt dont just be rigid to the Dutch style, I will bet on the Best Thai at the same weight under 70kgs against any western fighter 99 out of a 100(Under full Thai rules). Mix the two is easily done!

PEACE

AVD72

[dutts72]

To Glenn and Paul C.

Firstly soemone else who has had the pleasure of watching Soumluck Khumsing amazing display. That was his 1st Muay Thai fight in 7 years as he had been Amatuer Boxing and had won Thailand 1st ever Olympic Gold medal in anything( he was previoulsy a 7 time Rajadmnern Champ). By then he was a movie star, Tv personality, his face was evreywhere. His Gym Jockey Gym which I had a rare honour at the time to train there as only Nikema, Simpson, The Riddler, Timur Dahl and myself wre lucky( myself 2 months) enough to be allowed to train there full time. We had to find our own accomadation etc. I was living 45 mins away and used to catch a motor bike to Timurs house every day to train in the afternoon. Down the road from the Gym was a massive house, brand new and it was Somlucks who had turned the back into a camp for the young kids of the area. I hardly ever used to be allowed to kick the pads and just hit the bags, Shadow boxed etc and watch Somluck train for the Sydney Olympics. Most of the time though he spent playing Takra and smoking. A few good amazing stories can be told of my short time training with these guys at that camp.
Regarding Muay Thai Videos I have most of the K-1 Tapes for sale and used to own some great Dutch V Thai Tapes and Kings B'days but slowly they disapper. I do have some great Lumpinee from the 80's and even some 70's.

Paul C

Most likely I will be in Bangkok during December for a number of reason. Your ideas are fanatastic, I have actually been harrasing my mate who makes short films to do a doco as I have so many ideas and great connections. He's to carried away with crazy ideas and its driving me loco. Will get back to you.

PEACE

AVD72

[JWP]

I think you will love the Kings birthday Paul. Just make sure you get there early and try and get a good spot because there are so many people. You have to be careful because while you are taking photo's you don't want to block anyone's view because the Thai's have been known to throw bottle's asking nicely to get down so they can see.
I was lucky enough to fight fight on both 99 and 2000 Kings birthday (also 97 and 01). I was the last fight on Thai tv 99 but they never put my fight on the video. I also fought Orono for my world title after Somluck fought Kamel year 2000.
Wish I was on it this year but going to be fighting in Holland in the Super League instead on the 6th of Dec. If I was there Paul I would have let you hang out with me before the fights. I could have taken you to the weigh in and got you a good spot on the ring. Maybe next year.
John Wayne

[paul c]

Thanks Wayne,

I was actually hoping you might get asked again this year, I wasn't aware of your Dec 6th fight.

I

[Glenn]

DUTTS72, are you able to do copies of the Lumpinee fights from the 70s-80s you speak of? How much would you want for a 3-hour tape?

The story about Somluck reminds me of a story I heard about Samart when he used to train. Apparently, once they got out view of the gym during the morning run, Samart would sit down and have a smoke behind a fence. He's on tv as well isn't he?

JWP:
Good luck with the Superleague and if you get an invite for the Kings Birthday next year, I will go along for sure!(hint hint..:) hehehe)
BTW, do you know if "Bo" is still fighting from Sangtien's gym?

[JWP]

Hi Glenn,
Bo is still there training as hard as ever. He has been winning some pretty big fights lately and getting pretty famous. He is one of the strongest in the gym and gives 100% morning and night, don't know how he does it.
Did you train at Sangtiens before?
JWP

[Glenn]

Yes I did, only briefly though, 2 and a bit weeks. I got the details off you!. They were really great people and unfortunately, I can only remember the names of Samkor and Bo, and whilst I have been able to follow what Samkor is up to now and then on ax, I haven't been able to follow how Bo has been going. I was there in 2001 and Bo and another fighter left to fight in Japan, I can't remember the name of the other guy, but he was very quiet. He was about 5.10" and around 18 then and had only been there for a year or so. There was also a young guy around 14 who had a very hoarse voice and told me that he was going to go leave to go back home in 2002. Also some of the young boys (as pictured in your article in Kickboxer) had a lot of promise. I will hopefully go to Thailand again and perhaps see some of them fight in the future! Do you have any of their fights on tape?

[lamb_chops]

Thats great dutts that you have been using the dutch style, anyone that trains in that style is known to be very smart and know alot about the sport.i would like to catch up and see what types of drills you do and how they compare to ours at the team ultimate muay thai stable,legendary trainer john scida who form day one is the dutch master and drill trainer and my mentor and the trainer of all of us down there in west sunshine,were abouts are you located dutts??.Thats exactlly right you need the hands and feet, good grapple, teep, and wall of defence as good as the one and only JWP master of defence you are the complete fighter. i would also like to see your videos of the ducth and thai.

JWP what do you think about the dutch style and how it compares to the thais and if you think its the winning recepie?? also congrats on your fight with gotto man i could imangine how hard it would of been mentally. Any way i will hope to see you soon on the next demicolli show sep 19th as i will be coming down to fight again from the vic team ultimate (john scida).I also hear you might be fighting jenk behic soon? maybe if you have some time you could show me a few tricks? i would really appreiciate it.

cherrs jason. (team ultimate melbourne)