Thai style or Aussie style?

[Voice]

Something that has bugged me for a long time concerns how a 5 round MT fight begins. The 1st round is the traditional 'feeling out' process and nothing much happens, right?

Well if you are a super fit athlete and can go 5 hard rounds in your sleep then why waste time in 1st gear, especially when 9 times out of 10 you already know what your opponent can do?

Is this a just a fighter's and trainer's respect for the tradition of the sport or is there a wink and nod between the combatants that we won't go too hard in Round 1?
You don't often see the Thais going against this but in Australia many MT fights go gangbusters from the start...perhaps the more experienced fighters build the pace however.
Thoughts?

[Hellfighter]

it's common knowledge that in Thailand the gamblers don't start raising their fingers until round 3, but this depends on who is fighting and what the odds are... I've been at Lumpinee when the betting started during the Wai Khru

so, the first and second rounds usual feel out rounds while they prepare for war and to make extra money (besides their purse)

I believe in Australia and around the world that not only trainers but the fighters themselves like to keep the tradition, but as has been argued on here many times "this isn't Thailand" (this statement has been said on FoxSports about Chok, Yut and Yek being used by the Referee instead of Box, Stop and Separate... 2003 ruling by the WMC, that Thai instructions must be used in the ring)

many foreigners used to go hammer and thongs from the opening bell and then would being to gas by round 3, so against a thai opponent this was no good as they were just warming up, then came the phrase "if you want to fight like a thai, you have to train like a thai" and many carried that into the ring with the slow start

so, I reckon if the fighters want to start slow, let them, but it is also up to the Ref to pull them to the middle of the ring and tell them to get into fight mode if very little is happening

[Q]

Someone forgot to tell SuperBoi this he went nuts from about 6 seconds in, elbows, knees the works. Crowd loved it

[hunter02]

It was never a tradition thing for me, more to get used to the environment and give the corner an opportunity to see the opponents weakness to set the strategy, its not always easy to get tapes.

[Dynamite Drew]

Samson Issan was like bull charging out the gate from r1 in some of his fights

[Hellfighter]

it definitely is "to each their own" when it comes to how one starts in a fight... Norasing Lukbanyai is also another fast starter, he KO'd Petchmorakot Teeded99 in 81secs to take his title and stop his 20 fight winning streak

oh and another good one (sometimes) is CaptainKane Narupai... 26sec KO at Raja for S-1 Title

[BabyCube]

I think it's different, mt in thailand and mt in Australia have many differences.

[Dynamite Drew]

it definitely is "to each their own" when it comes to how one starts in a fight... Norasing Lukbanyai is also another fast starter, he KO'd Petchmorakot Teeded99 in 81secs to take his title and stop his 20 fight winning streak


i`d do the same if i was facing Petchmorakot on a 20 fight winning streak

[Hellfighter]

Daniel, elaborate, afterall you're living over there

[hunter02]

Hell, sorry to jump in here Daniel. I had about 9 fights in thailand and the judging was totally different, it felt like the judges didnt even look at the fight until round 3(unless you were getting thrown round like a rag doll) so why go balls out? I also found I had to change the approach depending on the type of show in Oz, eg taking out the 'feel out' round if it was on more of a kickboxing based show. eg the differnece in judging between a WKA show and WMC show.

[BabyCube]

Well Hell, in Australia even though they say "punches score the least on the judges score cards and rah rah rah" it's not true. I've seen dozens of fights won on points with punches that in thailand would go the other way and wouldn't even be close.
Also....yes hunter02 the judges don't really score the first 2 rounds...but they score it as it goes....it's really hard for me to explain but I don't think you can actually "score" a muay thai fight on paper but it has to be scored with your eyes...for example when a fighter wins round 1,2,3,4 but loses round 5 and loses the fight.

This doesn't really answer voice's question on the fight pace of round 1 & 2 but Hell asked me to elaborate on my last post.
You know all the differences anyway Hell....

[Hellfighter]

it wasn't for me, junior, just thought I'd get your side for the other members

[BabyCube]

it wasn't for me, junior, just thought I'd get your side for the other members

haha I gatherd that.

[mitch_seth]

In Thailand it almost seems like a progressive score for close fights that in a sense whoever is winning at the end of the fight is awaded the fight..

[Traskie]

I was told the first two rounds in Thailand are used as warm-up prepatory rounds as Thais dont do much in the way of warming up except a little bit of shadow boxing.

[BabyCube]

In Thailand it almost seems like a progressive score for close fights that in a sense whoever is winning at the end of the fight is awaded the fight..

yeah that's what I mean by scoring with your eyes...just because you got the last few kicks in doesn't mean your winning at the end of the fight...also if you're winning by alot after round 3 and 4 and all you do is run away, block and teep you still win...I don't think it's something that can be explained though.

[mitch_seth]

definately not, u cant explain how to score muaythai in a matter of words.. the only way to sum it up is "effective use of muaythai", you cannot put a value on certain shots compared to others nor certain styles ie. attacking/aggressive vs backfoot/counter fighting.. i dont think judging is the kind of thing that can be taught in seminars really, you need to live and breath the sport to be able to see a fight for what it is..

something i often ponder over is.. why do punches in bunches score highly here (often when only 1 in 6 may hit the target) when effective picking off and countering often is completely overlooked.. western scoring is very different i must admit. i think more often than not the fighters themselves know who won anyway

[Voice]

ok Big Seth, you can stop posting under L'il Seth's account now...we know he is a smart kid but really...:D

[mitch_seth]

Hahaha.. c'mon neale at the rate my old man types he would have started that post in the morning yesterday and finished late last night haha :P

[TomS]

There's a sweet Tony Myers article floating around on the net that adequately sums up Thai scoring nicely to the Western layman fighter.

R1 and R2 are generally 10-10 unless something significant happens, but they can be taken into account in the overall awarding of the fight if rounds 3, 4, and 5 are close.

Western scoring doesn't favour the Thai's, and, likewise, Thai scoring doesn't favour most of the farangs fighting over there. You should be able to adapt your style to the conditions though, and the Thai's will train you in a way that reflects their scoring system.

[poondaddy]

something i often ponder over is.. why do punches in bunches score highly here (often when only 1 in 6 may hit the target) when effective picking off and countering often is completely overlooked..

This always baffles me. It frustrates me to see a boxer through bunches, not land one, then other boxer replies with a cracker of a rib kick and the average punter wonder why the kicker wins the round?

[Hellfighter]

as explained to me by the late General Vorayuut - "when judging a fight many techniques are thrown, but one must keep an eye for that 1 technique that could or does stop a fight... afterall, it only takes one technique to end a fight"

if you have 2 nakmuay exchanging kicks in the centre of the ring, one may throw 4 rapid kicks and the other may only throw one, but if that single strike stops the opponent or moves him it shows effectiveness... that is the technique that scores

[Voice]

some interesting insights...one can almost conclude that in Thailand the bout is scored as a journey and the more effective fighter wins over the course with the latter stages being more important.

I think our Western thinking does not sit well with this concept...how can rounds 4 or 5 be more important than rounds 1 or 2 if I execute the same techniques? Given that in order to give the appearance of objectiveness, fights over here require judges to submit cards round by round, it doesn't appear that fights can be judged in the same way.
Is this wide of the mark?

[DazMon]

Someone forgot to tell the Evolution 18 fighters, look at Superboi, Prasert, Narupon, Angie, there were some serious techniques thrown in R1 by all those guys, and more.

[mitch_seth]

Prasert and naruepol were still in first gear..

[DazMon]

Yeah thats the scary part young Mitch!

[BabyCube]

This always baffles me. It frustrates me to see a boxer through bunches, not land one, then other boxer replies with a cracker of a rib kick and the average punter wonder why the kicker wins the round?

In western judges the average judge would give the round to the punches in bunches dude.

The flaw I think there is in western scoring is when you have a 5 round fight and 1 person just barely edges out 4 rounds in the judges eyes, but say he gases in round 5 and gets his a$$ handed to him (or even knocked down) he would still win the fight. Maybe a K-1 style judging would be better in the sence that if the judge thinks that a fighter just edged a round 10-9 but if he won it convincingly 10-8 and convincingly with a knockdown 10-7 but if he's losing the round and knocks his opponent down the standard 10-8 or something? I don't know just expressing my opinion.

[Voice]

The flaw I think there is in western scoring is when you have a 5 round fight and 1 person just barely edges out 4 rounds in the judges eyes, but say he gases in round 5 and gets his a$$ handed to him (or even knocked down) he would still win the fight.

Personally I don't have a problem with that...why should the guy who bums around for 4 rounds and puts in a good showing for 1 round win?
If Western style judging is competent (by weighting different techniques in hierarchy) and unbiased then I don't see what the matter is and indeed why a fight can't be scored with cards handed in round by round.
As others have mentioned, betting and other matters seem to be a component in the traditional method of scoring and that perhaps doesn't have a place in Western culture.

[Hellfighter]

you can't win a 500m race if you only start running at the 400m mark

[Voice]

you can't win a 500m race if you only start running at the 400m mark
sure you can Hell, didn't you ever read Aesop's Fables about the hare and the tortoise?:p

[Hellfighter]

true, but only if the clown wants to have a nap... that's where the extra dollars on the side come in I guess ;-)

[BabyCube]

Just because a dude is losing doesn't mean he's just bumming around...what I mean is all the rounds are.
I don't know...I prefer thai judging. or K-1 judging

[Hellfighter]

there appears to be just as much controversy in K-1 judging

[BabyCube]

yeah but I ment the way the judging works not what techniques score if that makes sence?

[Hellfighter]

that's what I meant also... some fights in k-1 are difficult to see how they came to their decision

it's in all contact sports

[BabyCube]

yeah but there are alot of politics in K-1. The idea behind the judging scoring system I think is right though... but I know what you mean about their decisions I've seen alot of bad dec's but I think there would usually be a greater power behind it

[Hellfighter]

as long as you think it's right, then it's right... too many arguments over things outside everyones control

[Voice]

with due respect to thai judging, I would think if there are serious bets involved then judges could easily be influenced, no??
The grass isn't always greener.

[Hellfighter]

yes and no, Voice, because if there are any discrepancies in the scoring they are looked into immediately and if it is found that a judge has taken a little on the side they are stood down straight away and face further action, also the punters will riot as they did at Rajadamnern earlier this year over 2 fights with the same fighters... they were climbing down from B class to ringside to try and get to the judges and objects were being thrown all over the place

if a fighter takes a dive they are banned for life and nowadays face jail time

[Voice]

that will learn 'em right and proper...