Taekwondo Vs Muay Thai

[madjack]

Hi all,
On Sunday night Jemal issued a challenge to kickboxers. Taekwondo V kickboxers.
Who would win.
I think if it is fought standard kickboxing Taekwondo would have the advantage, especially with the use of the feet, kicks etc. Especially after seeing Jemal's son in action for the second time. But what do you think would happen if it was Taekwondo Vs Muay Thai(full rules).
Could the Muay Thai fighter get close enough to grapple, use the knee's & elbows ????
Jack<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

[Blitz Editor]

I think that under kickboxing rules, Taekwondo fighers have a chance, so long as they learn to box and kick full contact.
However, a Taekwondo stylist would be at an extreme disadvantage if the fight allowed knees. To fight modified thai you need to learn Muay Thai neckwrestling or Grappling (standup). Taekwondo does not have any of these techniques, so the practitioner must crosstrain seriously. The real answer to these questions is not really style vs style, even in a no-rules context, but person vs person. Fatih is very talented and an exciting fighter to watch. Very entertaining. However, I think he would get cleaned up (in his first few fights) by someone like Paul Le, Shannon Forrester, or any good Muay Thai fighter at his weight who can grapple and knee effectively... then there are the elbows. After a few K-1 style bouts it would be a different story... Jemal is a fantastic trainer and Fatih would adapt quickly with the right training... Sorry guys if you think otherwise... Just my opinion.

[Citron]

I agree with jeremy in regards to the "person vs person" concept, rather than "style Vs style"...

Although according to my experience, Taekwondo students are good at fighting from a distance (because of the variety of kicking & excellent speed in footwork; they can shuffle quickly & they have quick agility), but once you get inside, it becomes challenging for them to fight effectively, and ofcourse, in close-in fighting, Muay Thai have more of an advantage. (I am talking about a full-contact fight which permits the use of knees, punches to the face & leg sweeps, kicking to the legs etc..).

Perhaps in my argument above, this is only applicable for 'average' students, who are usually students who only work with 1 style.

But if a person has an open mind to the many styles, he becomes more diverse & has more wisdom & tact.

For example, once, I sparred with a student who had done a mixture of Muay Thai Kickboxing, Taekwondo & Kyokushin Karate...and I found him to be challenging to fight...(near impossible!!) because he had more knowledge about different ways of combat; He was more 'open minded' than I was.

When he was at a distance, he tended to use his Taekwondo tactics (kicking combinations) to break the distance & when he was up-close (which tended to be 90% of the time) he tended to use his karate & kickboxing tactics. So none of my usual axekicks or spinning hook kicks or double kicks worked on him. A fighter who can control his opponent's movements in such a way is highly knowledgable. (He's divine!!!)

So you can imagine if the fight was a 'no-rules fight'...No doubt, the diverse martial artist will have more advantage than the martial artist who has only 1 style; in other words... Goodbye me!!! <img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>

All my opponent needed was, one more style, in grappling/throwing and then I would surely have been annihilated !! <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>













Edited by - Citron on 29 Mar 2002 18:46:01

[Glenn]

Muay Thai vs TKD.
Muay Thai is the most effective stand up fighting style in the world.
Just compare the roundhouse kicks of the two styles, Muay Thai kick is a like a baseball bat, TKD kick is like a flick of a wooden ruler!
TKD has no chance against Muay Thai.

TKD vs Full Contact Kickboxing maybe, but who's interested in watching those styles? I'm not, sorry!!.

[sooty]

Muay Thai the most effective stand up art in the World? Whoah a big call their bud?
Maybe Muay Thai is the most effective ring art in the World? "maybe?

Sooty / Mark / Kokoro

[Citron]

Glenn,....What you are saying cannot be true...

If Muay Thai was the "best" universal style... then, all other styles would simply not exist.

In fact, other styles cannot exist & flourish, if Muay Thai is the "best"...just think about it...

If it is a fact that, Muay Thai is the best, then, no one would do any other style. What use would it be to choose something which is below the "best"???? That is, if "the Best" is a universal fact.

It would be like using a candle instead of electricity for light in a very modern country!

But this is not the case.

And hence, your opinion is not evident, but it is a mere opinion; mere words.

A true martial artist is a human being with an open mind. And it is not the 'style' that creates him.

I.e. "Kyokushin Karate" did not create the Great Master Mas Oyama, but Mas Oyama created Kyokushin Karate.

"Jeet Kune Do" did not create Bruce Lee, but Bruce Lee created it.

I have seen Taekwondo students who have as powerful kicks as Muay Thai students. And that power is a result of 'training' not 'style'.

IF a style creates your persona, then you are not a true Martial Artist...but rather a slave to a system.

And slaves have neither liberty nor freedom.

[Paul]

I'm not Muay Thai's biggest fan, most of you guyst that know me know that I prefer K1 rules and regular Kickboxing. Only because I think like the pace and am not much into grappling. Though, damn I love watching elbow fights.
But, when comparing Muay Thai to any other martial art, I think the proof is there guys. What happens when we watch someone from a non MT background step in a fight an MT fighter.
In my experience the non MT guy gets his ass handed to him.
I don't exactly know why this is, except that it seems MT guys are much more used to horrid punishment and seem to handle a lot more than guys from other disciplines can handle.

[sooty]

Osu,
I think that we have to try and differentiate between Ring fighting and fighting on the Mats, The Thai style suits the Ring fighting right down to the ground in that, if you cant escape in the Ring, the Thai fighter will eventually catch up with you, if you do not have the skills to evade for 5 rds and counter effectivly then well you probably lose, "but" when i compare some of the Kyokushin , Seido, and Kickboxers fighting styles & fighters ie: Hallford, Greco, Oniel etc if the were to fight under Thai rules but "on the Mats" i think that the outcome would probably differ greatly, not only in the Thai fighter having distance probs, ( because their are no ropes) but also the space that allows the use of long range set up and counter/attack strategy.

Osu


Sooty / Mark / Kokoro

[qlander]

I tend to agree with the theory that it is more "how" you train than "what" you train. There is no secret to Muay Thai technique. It is the way Thai fighters train the technique that is important. Look at all of the successful kickboxers/thai fighters that have come from a TKD background. None of them kick the same way that a "traditional" TKD fighter does. They learnt to use more hip, lift their knees higher (to avoid clashing and blocking)and use more follow through or thrust for power/impact. I teach a freestyle class as well as Thai class and the biggest hassle I have is when a TKD dude comes and I teach him/her how to hit the pads/bag. Most have no idea how to actually hit something. They have done it all in the air and lose it if they have to hit something. On the other hand, I have had Freestyle TKD guys train with me who did all there kicking on pads of some sort, and they were lethal... they had power, accuracy and speed and could actually hit things. As a side note, I have noticed that Thai fighters who compete against kickboxers come unstuck though,(preacher vs Baris & F16 vs Greek Boy) at grapple range they seem to be lost, while the kickboxers can punch well at this range.

[Paul]

True guys.
Glander, the Preacher Vs Nezif example I think is another fighter quality thing over fight style.

Though, as far as ringsport and fighting in the ring, not too many people have been very successful against Thai's. I mean if we're to take the best thai from one of the big stadiums and put him in the ring with someone of the same weight but from a TKD background (maybe an olympic champion or something)........ do yo think things would then be in Muay Thai's favor?

[Blitz Editor]

Hi Glander, I agree with your comment on Muay thai guys fighting kickboxers, but feel I should comment. Those fights were under kickboxing rules, which I think WAS your point anyway. Shannon Forester would have had a much better fight against Zambidis if the fight had of allowed knees.
So I suppose the end result is you become good at what you train for. Pretty obvious really when you think about it. So if you want to go into a Muay thai fight and stand a chance, it makes sense youe should be able to use knees and elbows. If you want to train just for kickboxing, forget the knees and focus on kicking and boxing combinations.
Then again, the best way to test 'it' is to put two people in a cage and see who wins. Knees, elbows, submissions, everything.

Just a question though, does anyone think that Jemal Hasan's TKD is anything like the training that other TKD schools do? If it is not, is it modified TKD for the ring? Does Fatih represent a typical TKD stylist, or has he taken on the characterstics of a kickboxer? Just a thought...

[Citron]

Perhaps the biggest 'let-down' of Taekwondo (especially after the year 2000), is that the students tend to aim for the Olympics now, rather than the free-style full contact tournaments.

So you can imagine after 100 years ahead what will happen to the Taekwondo style as a "fighting style"...

And it is very clear that the Taekwondo Olympic rules are not 'fighting' rules...but rather...'sport' rules.

Which means that a Taekwondo Olympic champion is not necessarily (& most likely) NOT an outstanding fighter...but perhaps may be an outstanding "sports"-man/woman.

It's interesting though...

I have met a few Taekwondo teachers who create a boundary between A "fighting style"...and a "sportive style".

These gentlemen tend to admit that Taekwondo is not like any other Martial Arts because it tends to focus by far more on "Point system" than "fighting ability".

Feedback from these gentlemen makes me deduce that Taekwondo is not a 'fighting style'...but rather a 'demo style'. It tends to be very flashy & goodlooking... This is why most Taekwondo students have amazing flexibility. And this is why anyone can get their Blackbelt in Taekwondo; unlike getting a black belt in Kyokushin karate in the MiddleEast..(eeeeeeek)...

ANd most Taekwondo students are aware of this...and hence, they keep away from "All style full-contact Tournaments". And aim for the Olympics... Out of 20, 19 Taekwondo students/intructors which I have spoken to, highly 'fear' fighting with people from other styles. This is why the big Taekwondo schools tend to be isolated from other schools.

Despite this, A Black Belt taekwondo student is no doubt able to defend himself/herself against any street problems (so long as the attacker is an average citizen!!)

Parodoxically, the "let-down" of Taekwondo is also the big advantage of Taekwondo...**THE OLYMPICS**

By being an Olympian, you are not necessarily the best fighter...but you get a medal, fame, a lot of promotion, and global opportunities. Which means heaven for many people !!

Despite believing in all of these above points, I still think that style vs style is not arguable...

But rather personality Vs personality...

And as Benny the Jet always says "How you train, is how you react".

If you train hard...then you are dangerous!!!!! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

[Citron]

Just like to add a few more things...

My previous points are no doubt limited to the TAekwondo clubs which I have seen.
In regards to 'training'...
I am referring to the Taekwondo clubs which I have seen and been to.(In Australia)
The big guys that I know, tend to direct Taekwondo students to the Olympics- Nothing else. (Not even NAS tournaments).

I haven't seen any other clubs (TAekwondo) which deviate away from this glamorous opportunity.

But I do hear that Jamal Hussein is different. But I don't know how-in regards to training.

Does he also tend to focus towards the Olympics? OR does he mix the training with kickboxing??

In the olympic based clubs- training is more targeted towards Cardio fitness, flexibility, etc.. & Sparring is Olympic orientated. This is why perhaps I was able to be more critical.

Besides...Australian Taekwondo Olympians tend to train luxuriously... unlike Muay Thai fighters !!! Which really makes me question the outcome...(it's funny!!! No Offence) <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

If you guys rephrase the topic into...

Luxurious Olympian Taekwondo Vs Muay Thai

I'll give the win to Muay Thai !!!!! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

In other words, your method of training is what makes you a champion. (And ofcourse...with an open mind...) <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>









Edited by - citron on 03 Apr 2002 14:59:17

[madjack]

What did you think of Taekwondo in the Olympics in Sydney, I personally found it quite boring.

[qlander]

I with you Madjack. Actually I was little embarrased by it also (as a martial artist). What I found puzzling was the number of times the TKD side kicks were nullified by the opponent stepping in too close. The #1 aussie guy (Hanford I think his name was)had only 1 fight (I think) and he and his opponent repeatedly tried to "step up side kick" only to have each kick jam each other on the way up. Pretty pathetic really. Oh, and I love the way they call it "full contact" and not semi contact. My students hit harder than that, body/head gear or not.

[Citron]

Geeeeeeeeeeeeez the 2000 Olympics Taekwondo style was not just "pathetic" it was humiliating !!!!! (No offence)

I found it boring too!!!! And I was highly dissapointed by it.
Before the Olympics 2000 , I had never seen Taekwondo in action ever. So I naturally had a picture in my head that Taekwondo was really fast dynamically, included a lot of superkicks (Forgive me Taekwondonians for my stereotypical attitude!!!), in simple words I had high expectations towards how a Taekwondo fight looked like...But it turned out nothing like what I imagined. In fact, back in 2000, I really lost my admiration towards Taekwondo style fighting.

And the word "pathetic" is perfect for what I saw back in 2000.

As a sport....Okay!!
As a Martial Art...NO WAY !!!!

[Citron]

It's funny how you guys also noticed this.

I thought I was the only one !! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

No doubt that these Taekwondo Olympians would have a lot of difficulties in a "real full-contact" ring fight...

Afterall, if 'the style' is a "fighting" style, then it should do well no matter where you put it. But from what I saw back in 2000, the Taekwondo style of 'fighting' is not "A fight"...it's "A SPORT".

[Ron Mc Don]

Taekwondo spinning kicks may look good but what is the use if they don't connect. A simple, yet powerfull, straight punch or knee lift would do more damage, more easily, than a fancy complex kick that any decent fighter could see coming a mile away.

By the time the taekwondo attacker has performed the the spin, let along the kick, the kickboxer can have stepped out of the way and prepared to atack before the in coming kick has been completed. The kickboxer also has the chance to take advantage of the fact that his opponent is not only on one leg but is also spinning. This is a perfect oppotunity to kick, or sweep, at the surporting leg and not only dodge the incoming attack, attack the opponent back and also get the opponent on the ground and out of his element. The fact that kickboxers aren't comfterble and caperble grapplers and ground fighters also has to be taken into consideration, but depending on the rules, this would leave the kickboxer the chance to attack the opponent with both violent downward and forward punches and kicks, rendering the opponent unconious and/or claiming the victory.

The above mentioned situation is just one of many that could accour in a Taekwondo v.s Kickboxing/Muay Thai fight where the exaggerated attacks of taekwondo can be easily avioded by using simple, powerful, straight line movements.

[madjack]

Citron,
I actually turned to another channel when it came on at the Olympics as the padding and inactivity bored me to death and these are the elite (amateurs)?????
Ron McDon, what you are saying is exactly what should have been done against Jemals son, several times!

[Ron Mc Don]

As a sport Taekwondo is boring, because after a few hits on a padded surface the match is over. And as self defence its even worse. Who when they are being robbed or getting into a fight in the street, stops and puts on padding and gives his opponent some as well, and then says to the attacker "whoever hits the other a couple of times wins and gets to take whatever they want".

[Citron]

Besides, Taekwondonians are not accustomed to leg kicks...in kickboxing/Muay Thai & even Karate...Kicking to the legs is very common. And believe me, if you get hit once on your leg by a Muay Thai fighter...you won't be doing any fancy kicks for a looooooooong time (i.e. You'll be lucky if you can walk the next day!)

You also raised up a really good point...High kicking in its essence has one big problem...to kick high, you use one leg to kick, the other to balance on...this in itself is a weakness. The position is vulnerable (like what you said...) to legsweeps, low kicks. You can easily lose balance on one leg.

In a taekwondo fight, punching to the face is not permitted. As well as kicking to the legs. No knees, No elbows, no legsweeps are allowed. So you can imagine what a Taekwondonian is accustomed to. Bringing him/her to the ring is near impossible...because real fighting highly deviates away from what they are accustomed to in their own clubs.

In terms of self-defence, actually, TAekwondo does have some good techniques...but most are quite awkward to use in a real situation.

Another interesting point...Taekwondo teaches you to always block with your hands...But Muay Thai, & kickboxing gives you both...to block with your hands, and to block with your legs (shins etc.)...this I find highly useful in Muay Thai & kickboxing. ie. it gives you more freedom in utilizing your body in many ways.





Edited by - citron on 08 Apr 2002 21:24:55

[Guy]

Put tkd against muay thai with thai rules the tkd fighter would get beat. Use tkd rules the thai fighter would get beat or disqualified.

Fight them no rules whoever fights dirtiest wins.

You thai guys can kick each other in the leg all night I'll be going for an eye gouge.

[madjack]

A chin digging into the eye socket whilst wrestling on the ground works pretty well also...

[Citron]

It would be very difficult to eye gouge a smart fighter ...
Kicking to the legs always pays off... I've seen some fights where 1 kick to the leg ends it all. Or for example SamGreco's fight back in 1998 at Melbourne's Casino... Sam Greco kept kicking his opponent to the legs until the opponent gave up, and Greco won the title.
More examples can be seen in Stan the Man's fights...